Bad Beta Reading Experiences?

I know there's an earlier, "Any critiques to your story you disagreed with?" thread, but is there any beta/critique services you offered in which you kind of wanted to strangle the author?

Recently, I've been offering my beta services to someone I met on another website, and I want to say I spent an hour or two detailing my critiques, what I thought was wrong, what I thought they could do better... Only for them to in the next 24 hours come up with a new draft that addresses ONLY ONE of the MANY problems I pointed out, ignoring every other critique and adjusting a problem in this ONE scene, and ask if it's better. Nothing much has changed except for flavor text and a couple of scenes. Somehow, in the newest draft the author sent to me, they'd gone back and reverted back to having problems I pointed out in the first draft, which was gone the second draft, and then somehow came back in the third draft.

I know an author's work is precious is them and not all beta readers are correct, but suffice to say, I'm not betaing for this person anymore.

Has anyone gone through anything similar?

 

What's the difference between beta reading services and developmental editing? Is a beta reading service an iterative process? I always thought a beta reader read it maybe once, provided their feedback and that was it.

 

Honestly, I don't know the difference myself. I met the guy on the r/beta subreddit so I just call it beta reading. After my first read, I said I'd be happy to look at it again once he had the kinks worked out because I thought it'd be the polite thing to do, and then he sent me another draft straight away, so I just thought, "I guess this is happening?" Learned from that mistake.

Guess I should just clarify the title from "bad beta read experience" to "bad giving advice/critique to authors experience". Something like that.

 

You did your part, your job is done. Not that it was a job, but you know what I mean. Now the ball is in his court.

There's an aspect to this though that I don't see discussed anywhere—often people will initially reject critique because they get their feelings hurt, but after some time they'll take it to heart. They usually won't admit it once they've reacted poorly, it would be a loss of pride, but I've seen people flip over the long term. And I understand it because I've done it myself a few times.

I've also given advice that was rejected, sometimes angrily, and then a month or so later it became clear they're actually doing what I suggested, though they won't admit to it. It's tricky, you have to take people's feelings into account, and you never know what's gonna set them off.

 

I did a beta for a guy who sent me several pages of instructions re: how he thought I should approach reading and commentary of what was his first attempt at writing a novel. I sent him the critique and mentioned that I was looking forward to seeing the next draft. He was totally affronted by the notion of a second draft. The novel was done and was, in his opinion, all but perfect.

 

I've had some very grateful authors that I beta read for and some that seemed annoyed at what I was pointing out. One story I critiqued I couldn't seem to get the author to understand their male characters sounded like females - men don't ask each other to talk about their feelings over a cup a tea. Also I tried to explain that she was taking the feminist bit too far. She would not write her character doing anything domestic which made her character look lazy and the man overachieving. A man cooking is somehow still seen as some hot feminist take when it seemed even dated by Who's the Boss terms. If the man is a P.I. disarming bombs the least the woman could do is fry him a hamburger.

Another got very agitated when I tried to explain how to tie his themes together - there was a robot (with a female persona) and an overbearing mother. I suggested that the theme should be rectifying the fact that the mc was using the robot to replace the mother figure. He said that was too complicated to incorporate. I tried to explain how it would give the mc some depth and give motivation for the action rather than have it so episodic. Nope.

My thing is, ultimately, it's their story and you can only give advice and or opinion. It's up to them what they do with it.

 

I'll still do beta reads but I'm probably going to be pretty selective about it. My last one was a little over a year ago during lock down and in retrospect I should have known better. The lady who wrote it, in our communications, always said things like "everyone loves my prose" or "I just always find the words to tell exactly what my characters are thinking". I read it and let's say...she probably would not have passed elementary grammar. I figured what the hell and slogged through it anyway, making copious notes. Throughout the process, she would send me messages every other day asking how it was going and if I liked it (big red flag). I finally sent her my notes, giving praise where it was good but breaking down the things she could do to improve. The last communication I got from her was her telling me to do something inappropriate with myself, then I was blocked. The moral of the story: don't beta read for anyone who self-praises their ability or asks constantly if you like it. They are looking for affirmation, not constructive feedback.

 

I'm not inclined to call what I feedback "Beta", because, to me, that suggests a level of expertise and informed opinion that I'm not qualified to impart. I don't know what works, what will advance a piece of writing to publication, but I can give feedback as a reader on those things that strike me both positively and negatively when reading. Generally, my comments seem to be received politely, certainly nothing reactionary has come my way.

My worst experience with Beta was where I sent a piece of about 12k words to someone for feedback. It's a piece that I fully acknowledge is probably unpublishable, wordy, disjointed with an unhealthy fixation on some of the more unpleasant bodily functions. And yet, it's still my favourite thing that I've written, but maybe just for me. I picked up on an imagined slight in the feedback and went off on one, taking umbrage and venting in return. So, my worst experience with Beta, unfortunately, was where I was the complete wanker. I did settle a bit and issued an apology that I hope was received as sincere and did receive an acceptance of that apology. Big learning for me though.

Writing and putting it in another person's hands is like stripping naked in front of a stranger. Uncomfortable whatever way, but callouses develop and one learns to deal with it. The bad reaction to feedback is surely part of most writers' process, something they will need to manage if they are to continue writing.

 

@Lili.A.Pemberton

What a great thread and insightful feedback. I cannot offer any added value here as I’m a complete amateur but would be interested in any one’s thoughts. I’ve a novel I’m building had the wife read a draft and a couple of friends also. Unfortunately, this group find it extremely hard to criticize. The wife is getting much better at this in all sorts of areas.

Using this forum, I’ve had three parts reviewed at different times. In all honesty the feedback was phenomenally helpful. I wanted a bloodbath and fully expected posts I’d disagree with. I pride myself in general being able to look at problems and issues from other people’s points of view. It’s a really hard skill to do relying on deflating one’s ego and understanding another’s wants and needs. The first want is a tick so they can show their own piece in the workshop. This is small, but worth taking into account when they admit to only reading the first few paragraphs.

The reviews were truly amazing. I must have read and re-read a single piece hundreds of times, and yet they’d spot something that was blindingly obvious. I knew I could not see the story for the words. Even the things I didn’t agree with, I tried to look at it from that reviewers POV. It made me make some tweaks that looked better...

This was/is exhausting, with motivation dropping thinking what the rest of the novel needed? However, it was never a snap at the reviewer. I’ve noticed on many occasions here, where authors try to stand and defend their work. This is a huge issue, excepting that someone does not like or understand your work must be part and parcel of the trade.

My issue now is one of embarrassment. I’ve three chapters of an eight-chapter story having been looked over, and need more. I’ve donated to the site, but don’t feel it appropriate to keep pushing out further parts for review. I need a beta reader, a brutal beta reader. I believe this is fully needed before ever thinking about an editor, but I wouldn’t expect this to be done for free.

On my initial inquiries I’m little confused on the service provided. So, a novel 100k word count what do I actually get you to do? Apparently, there’s a grammar and sentence feedback. Then there is another service that actually looks at the story structure itself. The USD amounts do add up, and to be fair you’d earn it reading my garbage. At just this stage an outlay of USD2k – 4k seems normal. For the editing it climbs to USD8k. Am I right here or in the ball park? It would make sense why so many self-published works have some horrible errors in them.

For me, your OP is right their work is precious but the inability to see criticism is a fatal flaw. @jannert opening line was your story starts here... It floored me, but by God she was right.

Sorry for the ramble

MartinM

 

I feel there's a strong element of horses for courses here. $8k on editing wouldn't be a good investment for someone's first novel, if it's pre-submission, or self-published. Using someone a bit cheaper, or a succession of different volunteers, wouldn't have a massive effect on a first novel's chances of making money (sadly). And unless the style is super-turgid, it shouldn't take more than a week of someone's time to read 100k words and make some useful comments on each chapter. How much do we think beta-readers should earn a year, given it's probably a side-hustle and might not be efficiently tax-collected?

Also what about the collaboration thread? It has some requirements to post but I'm not sure what they are.

 

Useful to know - thanks! The rules post and FAQ still say 90 days and they mention selling is banned, but not offering payment - I'm conscious not everything's always editable from within a forum though, or that they might have been hard-coded into the site

 

I hope you mean 1-1.5 thousand usd. Unless inflation over there has gone even crazier than it has here.

 

@evild4ve

Yes, your words make real sense here. I know full well I need a STYLE and GRAMMAR beta reader. Also, I need someone to then read the thing. They are two independent tasks, I know poor wordsmanship kills the story. The novel I’m not expecting it to earn money, but would die of embarrassment if friends bought it and the first feedback was the grammar...!

I genuinely don’t mind a little inward investment that pays back useful dividends. Delivering a better product. This is the OP problem with the client. The client with instant feedback shows full well he hasn’t taken in the advice. He’s not listening but defending.

The Patent Bridge Race (5,600) | Creative Writing Forums - Writing Help, Writing Workshops, & Writing Community

The link above is to one of my workshop posts. Don’t read my story for God’s sake, but instead scroll down to @jannert reply. I actually asked her to look at it. Her reply was she knew nothing on the subject of warfare but would give it a go…

And this OP’s client misses the gold. All the reviews are good, but this one was like a lightning strike. Its frightening the effort and time I did on the re-work. Motivation wise it was a killer, knowing full well this was needed in all my other chapters. We’ve spoke about this in another thread...

Here’s the thing I would say to the OP, I knew what to expect from @jannert. I imagine employing a Beta reader must involve some back and forth first. What both you and he expect, and outcome. The OPs client was surprised, this too must be reviewed by the OP.

I’m not sure what you mean on the collaboration thread, not workshop right? Maybe it’s worth donating considerably more to the site and continue with the reviews?

Would thank @big soft moose for his comments and actual prices. It does help enormously in the next stages of my hobby...

MartinM

 

It's not a thread, it's a whole forum: Collaboration

 

Glad someone mentioned that. This fact was what kept me from sharing my writing with anyone for... Well, ever since I started writing. And that was a long time ago.

Unfortunately, I've never had the pleasure of being a beta reader, so I can't really talk about bad experiences regarding that. HOWEVER I have been offering critiques to my brother for years and I think the words "Bad experience" certainly describe what that was like. Imagine a guy who never took 10 minutes to read a single article/book/essay/anything about writing. Then, imagine a guy who barely reads books. Now imagine that this guy thinks he can do no wrong, but still asks you to criticize his work. So you do and he gets mad you didn't like it. My personal favorite conversation was when I tried to explain to him that using r*pe as a plot device in an otherwise silly fantasy story is a bad idea.

That's why I don't write male protagonists. My writing would create a new subreddit called r/FeminineManWritingActualMen

 

Ooph. Yeah, I think that’s the best way to handle it— to stop critiquing for them.

Sometimes writers and critics just don’t click. Doubtless there’s a reason they ignored your critique… maybe they didn’t understand it, or didn’t read it, or didn’t actually want it, or maybe they felt overwhelmed and couldn’t fix everything so they focused on the basic stuff, or maybe they disagreed with it but felt it was rude to argue with someone offering them help… but you won’t find out what it was.

I’ve definitely had loads of situations where someone didn’t take my advice (which is fine! More power to ‘em) or situations where I ignored someone’s advice (because, although I appreciated their time, I thought they were wrong).

 

Oh geez, that sounds like a literal nightmare. Thankfully, I haven't encountered as bad as that yet.

 

I've never let any internet rando read my stuff before, but I've been considering it. This thread is scaring me a little though, haha.

When it comes to critique, I am not sure writer to writer is always best. A prolific reader can probably offer the most important insights - did I want to keep reading, did I enjoy the plot, characters, etc., did the work keep me engaged in some way. Another writer might just be focusing on what is most important to their own writing. But it's kinda tricky. I've been on the fence for this for a while now, but I think writing for your potential audience is best, and it makes sense to have someone like that read your work. For those concerned about style and mechanics, sure, writer to writer, go for it. For plot, characters, engagement, fun - readers.

 

Sorry to disagree, but I'll always prefer writer to writer. A reader can have trouble explaining "why" something doesn't work in your text. Their opinion is valuable, but it also isn't very precise, at least in my experience. When someone says "I dunno, the pacing is kind of slow" you need to identify the reason yourself. And, especially if you're new to writing, you can end up changing surface-level things without taking care of the core of your problem.

Of course, every reader's opinion is valuable and I can see your point. But keep in mind that things like plot and characters still operate on their own structure. Most of the friends I've shown my writing to don't know how a three-act structure works - a common thing responsible for the audience's enjoyment of almost every Hollywood movie ever made. These are things that a lot of people react to subconsciously. Same way a director would benefit more from the view of another director when choosing how to shoot a scene - every audience member can tell you whether a wide shot or a long shot looks cooler in their opinion, but few of them will tell you why an empty wide shot conveys loneliness better than a long shot.

 

As a person who has beta-read for MANY people over the years (and have had many wonderful beta readers for my own work) I have to say I've learned a few things during that time.


One - Some writing styles and content just don't float my boat. I do try, and very often do beta-read the sorts of novels I probably wouldn't buy for myself. And it works out, and I've stretched my ability to be open-minded about style and content. And sometimes I end up liking it, despite my initial misgivings. But occasionally I've been sent things that I really can't get into at all.

I think it's important, if this happens, to tell the writer that you really can't do it. Encourage them to try other readers, and don't make them think they've failed. When I've sent my own stuff to betas, I always tell them if they can't get into it, to just stop trying to read it. I'd appreciate knowing they've stopped, so I'm not sitting on the edge of my chair awaiting feedback. But stopping is fine. No harm done, no hard feelings, no ruined friendships, and no need to explain. I truly mean that.


Two - It's okay to ask questions of the beta, if you don't understand their feedback, or can't get to grips with the problems they're pointing out. But don't argue with them. (!!!) You don't have to do anything they've suggested, and they can certainly be wrong. However, just on the off chance that their points are valid, do try to step back from defending your work and think about what they've said. If you can get past the 'it's exactly the way I want it, I'm not changing a thing' phase—we've all been there!—you might find that their suggestions would actually improve the piece.

Keep in mind that what you intended to convey may not be coming across, even if you DID 'say it' early on, or whatever. There is often a huge gap between writer intention and reader comprehension. Do what you can to bridge that gap. Often it's just a case of going back to where you were setting things up and making sure that certain points stand out more strongly. If your beta was skimming and missed pertinent information, see if you can discover WHY they were skimming. Was the part they skimmed a tad on the boring or repetitive side? Or maybe you did the previous section so well that they wanted to stick with the same characters, and don't care about the new ones in THIS section quite so much. Maybe the pertinent information simply got swamped by other things happening in the story at the time? See what you can do to engage the NEXT reader in the whole story, including the links that hold the story together.

At the very least, unimpressed betas help you figure out who your target audience really is. That is quite important, actually. You may have started out thinking you're writing a Young Adult Romance, but what you've ended up with is an adult Thriller. It's good to discover that your YA audience isn't impressed—but your adult readers are!


Three - Here's one I'm finally getting to grips with. And believe me, I've been both ends of it.

Once you have received completed feedback from your betas, discussed it with them, and possibly made changes ...don't ask the same beta to re-read the thing to 'approve' the changes! What you need is a few fresh pairs of eyes. If the fresh pairs of eyes don't notice the issues the first betas discovered, then chances are the issues no longer exist. If they DO flag up the same issues, then chances are you need to re-think and revise again. Anybody who re-reads a story or novel is carrying with them the original story, so they're not going to see the revised MS the same way a fresh reader will see it. Obviously if they offer to read again, then let them do it. But don't ASK them to do it. Just move on and find a new reader. Especially if it's a novel, not a short story.

Think about it. You'll probably only re-read a novel if you LOVED it. And even then, you're unlikely to sit down and read it from cover to cover again right away. So don't put your betas on the spot, asking them to do that with yours. Yikes. And yes, this has happened to me many times. And I did it myself, twice, to friends of mine who volunteered to be my first betas. I cringe, to think about it....

Some betas may happily re-read. But, in general, be alert to any sign of reluctance on their part to read it again. If they actually want to read the new MS, THEY will ask YOU! Of course this doesn't apply to an editor, whom you are paying (I presume!) to stay with you till the story is finished to a high standard. But a beta reader/friend, who is essentially doing you a favour? Don't push it. If they feel trapped, they will be very unlikely to agree to read for you again, even when you produce a totally new story.

 

The only job of a beta reader is to make suggestions about the state of a story to the author. It's up to the author whether they take any of those suggestions to heart. If they don't like or don't agree with your suggestions, they are absolutely free to ignore them. You should not feel slighted when they decide to do something else. It's their book. You did what you were supposed to do. Time to move on.