How to use He/They pronouns in a story?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Oscar Leigh, Sep 1, 2021.

  1. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    My assumption was they were, but that was never the point. My objection was not to them, but to the suggestion I should care about such opinions, regardless of whether they personally hold them. If they are genuinely not in anyway bigoted, I apologise for presuming, but it was never the point. I would still disagree.

    It's important for me to point out this is my thread that I made to ask for advice on the best way to incorporate mixed pronouns in narration. It is not a debate room thread about trans validity, or about whether I should include a non-binary character in general.
    J. D. is non-binary and I am never going to write him differently, regardless of what pronouns he has or how I handle them in the narration. He is still going to be non-binary, even if I settle with just they/them.
    So I don't really want to debate that. I'm not going to linger on whether someone is transphobic. I would rather focus on how to use pronouns in the story.

    Currently, I am thinking of three possible ways to handle it. The first is my preference but the most delicate, which would be to not use they pronouns until the character is introduced properly as non-binary, and then shifting into alternating in kind of blocks. I think if there is a certain repetition of gendered or non-gendered pronouns with the same scene/s it makes less confusing. So changing less often and more clearly would be key. The second approach would be to use mostly or entirely he or they in the narration and just occasionally reference the other pronouns in dialogue, just to make the narration more consistent. Not fond of that, but I could make it work. And the last option is to settle for straight they/them, which I like even less, but I could do it for simplicity's sake and just acknowledge in other ways that the character leans more masculine than feminine. I am leaning towards the first option unless it truly doesn't work.
    Anyone's advice on the mechanics of that, which option, why and how to do it best, would be welcome. Otherwise I'm not interesting in debating further.
     
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  2. SapereAude

    SapereAude Contributor Contributor

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    I would just point out that in your first few posts in this thread you did not stipulate that you don't care if most people won't want to read your book.

    I offered very specific advice on the mechanics of it: don't use "he/they" or "she/they," because even among those who favor declaring their pronouns that form does not enjoy wide acceptance. I provided multiple, specific examples of named "celebrities" and how they do it. What more advice do you want?

    Unfortunately, even when you follow the de facto standard, it's still confusing. Take the bit I cited in the post you didn't like:

    Who, exactly, is "they" and "their"? I think it refers to Trisha alone, but it could equally apply to Trisha and a significant other/spouse, or to Trisha and an entire extended family. So, if you use gender-neutral pronouns, you will have to be prepared to explain your way out of the ambiguities created by the use of those pronouns in place of the historically-accepted, gender-specific pronouns.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
  3. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    Huh? They/them the population of folks who don't use they/them or they/them referring to SapereAude in the non-binary?
     
  4. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, the suggestion of using only they/them was more helpful. I'm not necessarily doing that, but as I said I am considering it.
    I was using non-gendered pronouns for that person because I don't assume genders and I hadn't checked their bio. I'm in the habit of using them anytime I don't know, so it's very natural to me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
  5. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    So the clue is the singular "bio" which might indicate that they/them is singular instead of plural and therefore refers to SapereAude rather than the aforementioned population of folks who don't use they/them except where them refers to the non-gendered pronouns.

    Piece of cake.
     
  6. Chromewriter

    Chromewriter Contributor Contributor

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    I think it's OK to just call people a pronoun that you're comfortable using until you get corrected. I don't think it's inherently offensive unless you disregard their preferred pronoun and become wilful. Courtesy and civility goes a long way and both ways.
     
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  7. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    My opinion is to do whatever you want so long as its consistent, the author has the freedom to do whatever they choose even if its not in line with normal rules of grammar.... if you chose to do somethiung different from the norm its as well to explain it at some point so that readers know its not an error

    if you choose to use singular they and you encounter a situation where it's very confusing to the reader you can intersperse with the character's name,
     
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  8. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    But using using a mixture of he/him/his and they/them/their work or is that not"consistent"? That's my main question. Of the three approaches I mentioned, which do you favour?
     
  9. JustATiger

    JustATiger New Member

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    Hi Oscar,
    I'm really sorry that you asked a genuine question and got a lot of responses from people who either don't know much about non-binary people, or didn't understand what you were asking . Either way, it seems no one answered your question. I hope you've found more useful resources in the past few days and I know this answer's a little late, but I'll try to help anyway. I also know a lot of people who use she/they or he/they pronouns, and it's been my understanding that it's actually quite common. You can definitely write alternating pronouns without resorting to changing the character. Alternating your pronoun use each paragraph block would help make things clear, and if you want to make writing the character as easy as possible, it could be your best bet.

    For the problem of alternating pronouns within a single shared paragraph not being clear, I think you're going to have to take that case by a case. Making sure the context is clear is a problem any writer can have regardless of the topic, unfortunately. There's still some syntactic tips and tricks you can use. Adding "his own/their own" when stating a possessive definitely helps. Especially, if you have additional details. For example, if you had a cluster of backpacks and were afraid that "they picked up his backpack" would be confusing. If you wanted to describe your character picking up his backpack, you could have a sentence before that describing what it looked like. That way, if you describe them picking up "his own backpack with the red spots", it'll be clear which character is doing it. It can be a hassle to keep in mind, but I personally find it fun to fiddle around with the syntax and paragraph flow.

    A lot of tricks that are used for other characters would work here too. Consider what you'd do if you had two characters with the same pronoun in a scene and didn't want to keep using their names over and over again. You'd do something to differentiate them, right? They'd have a descriptor like "the redhead", "the kid in the sweater" or "the taller one". Padding these description tags between using pronouns and their name is another way to make things clear. A lot of the general advice for minimizing ambiguity, and for making things read clearly all apply here. I found that the more practice you have with it, it starts to become second nature. It might be intimidating, but in the end it's really a matter of logistics and planning. I'm going to be honest, I heavily suspect if you had instead described your character as an alien or robot who you wanted to try using alternating pronouns for, you'd get people praising you for taking on the technical challenge....that being said, looking into fantasy/sci-fi advice for introducing a reader to technical terms or new grammar could also help you. Readers tend to adapt to a unique feature of a text the more it's used consistently, even if the novelty is confusing at first.

    I was so excited to see someone wanting to write a character who uses alternating pronouns, and I'm grateful you stood your ground against the people advising you against it. I also write a lot of nonbinary characters with so-called "incorrect" or "confusing" pronouns, and I don't give a single flying rat if the "majority of people" like it or not. No one should be expected to cater to people who don't respect them in the first place. (Anyway, I just started this account so if I was rambling, it's because I'm really new to forums like this. Sorry.)
     
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  10. Bruce Johnson

    Bruce Johnson Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    I think most were respectful in asking how it even works. Does the binary character's friend or ally just flip a coin to decide which to use? Do they have to make an effort to alternate exactly in an ABABABA pattern? I was genuinely wondering and still have no idea how it works and I'd assume many readers wouldn't either.

    To @Oscar Leigh since you said you don't have much desire to be traditionally published, I imagine a lot of your sales will be digital. In that case, couldn't you use a color coding system where say, a red they only refers to the binary character and a black 'they' refers to a general 'they'?
     
  11. Chromewriter

    Chromewriter Contributor Contributor

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    That's an interesting departure from only looking at it from a literary POV.
     
  12. AntPoems

    AntPoems Contributor Contributor

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    Hello, @Oscar Leigh. I think I like your first option the best. One of my (too many) WIPs has a gender-fluid character who uses magic to physically alter their body and present as whatever gender they feel like at the moment. At first, I tried writing it with your third approach, using they/their exclusively, but it got way too clunky. I realized that if I was getting confused writing it, there was no way a reader was going to understand it. Eventually I decided to refer to that character using whatever binary gender they were presenting—he/him or she/her—and clearly mark any point of transition in the narration.

    Here are the two transition points from the story, though they’re still rough (and I need to name these characters eventually!) Up until this point, FLUID has been presenting as female, and I’ve referred to them as she/her.
    And here they shift from he/him back to she/her.
    This may not fit your situation perfectly , but I hope you find it useful. Good luck!
     
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  13. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah I'm thinking I'll have certain clumps of like a paragraph or a scene where one sets of pronouns will be used before it alternates to another. So I would be avoiding in the sentence or paragraph, which should make ot easier to follow which one is being used at a given time.
    And yes the other stuff about using their name, descriptive phrases and context is definitely something I have in mind too.
     
  14. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Alternating pronouns are fairly simply actually. If a person has he/they or she/they pronouns and prefers alternation, you alternate. How you do so if up to you. As long as you make an effort to acknowledge the duality then it serves to recognise that aspect of their gender identity. It doesn't require anything particularly specific.
    I'm not necessarily expecting not to be traditionally published. I didn't say that. I'm just saying that, as people are found of saying when sensitivity issues come up, you can't please everyone. Using coloured text coding is an interesting thought though.
     
  15. Travalgar

    Travalgar Active Member

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    People may prefer alternation in the pronouns used to address them in real life, but for the sake of readability I would prefer you stick with one pronoun for them in writing and endeavor to use it consistently.

    Some writers even use Ze/Zir to tackle this problem: invent a whole new pronouns. Though of course you need to explain it to your readers somehow beforehand. Consistency is the key here.
     
  16. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    In fact using pronouns in a way that isn't confusing is one of the biggest issues for aspiring writers. All over the board you see people carelessly using pronouns without regard to what noun it refers back to and using them inconsistently, often making their work incomprehensible. You can't tell if it's referring back to the subject of the previous sentence, the one before that (or maybe several sentences back), or to the object of one of them, or maybe to something that wasn't even mentioned in the story.

    I would make sure you've mastered pronoun use in that sense before tackling something that seems custom-designed to confuse things even farther. What you're attempting seems to be a master-level test to see if you've properly learned pronoun use.

    Hah! Not intentional, but I used the pronoun you in that last paragraph to refer to the OP ( @Oscar Leigh ) and I failed to make that clear, since until that point I was using it to refer in general to people on the board or to beginning writers.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2021
  17. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Well, this story isn't my top priority as I have others I started working on earlier than it.
     
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  18. Vrisnem

    Vrisnem Member

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    So, to start off, I am a non-binary person who uses he/they pronouns. I have never asked anyone to alternate between using 'he' and 'they' for me nor would I even really want this. That requires too much conscious thought and referring to someone should feel natural and effortless. Instead, I give people the option of referring to me in the way that feels most comfortable for them. Most people use he but some (especially those who have spent time around me in drag) opt for they.

    In fiction it would bother me to see an author go back and forth on a character's pronouns rather than sticking to one or the other. It would feel forced to read. Using different pronouns in dialogue with different company would be realistic, because we do experience this in real life (e.g. my supervisor refers to me using they/them but my girlfriend refers to me using he/him), but I don't think it would read well if you tried to do this in description. When I write non-binary characters I go with the pronouns I feel they would refer to themselves by in their inner monologue.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  19. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Well first of, the article I shared earlier is a clear example of the fact some people do prefer alternation with he/they or she/they, so it is thing that exists and I think it should be able to be represented.

    Secondly, my concern is if "they" only occurs during dialogue it will be infrequent and easy to ignore, makimg it easier to think of them as just a cis man most of the time. If it was mostly "they" it would be easy to treat them as agender, which this character is not. And in some ways it could be more confusing if a character who is only referred to one way in the narrative is occassionally referred to another way in dialogue. It could feel like a sudden inconsistency from a norm.
    Having certain characters in particular use one or another set of pronouns who make that less confusing, but not entirely, and it would make it dependant on others. They are not the kind of person who would be okay with other people picking how they want to refer to them. Especially given, as you acknowledged with your experience, a lot of people would default to he/him if they are allowed to be exclusive.

    They want to be acknowledged in the totality of their nature, which means most people just calling them "him" only would feel like they are just a cis man to those people. My notion is the character is probably AMAB, so being called "him" a lot without much "they" would feel like they are ignoring the development of their non-binary identity. As if the character never came out.

    But I would consider the option you describe. It's on my list of options. Thank you for your input, it is good to hear from someone with personal experience of an issue.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
  20. AbyssalJoey

    AbyssalJoey Active Member

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    Depending on the context where you use it it may or may not be confusing, this, of course, is assuming the reader knows about this whole pronoun thing.

    It does not help that this pronoun use is almost exclusively (if not fully) used by one side of the political spectrum, so at best half of your potential readers are going to be very confused and at worst you just lost them (you may or may not care about that tho).

    Also, if you ever want to get your book translated to a different language be aware that a good chunk of strong languages (read, a lot of people speak them) do not have neutral pronouns, for example, in spanish "they" translates to "ellos/ellas" (male and female version respectively), I think that all romance languages are like this but am not sure; I also think that there is way more resistance to this kind of unnatural language change outside of the anglosphere (by unnatural I mean that it did not develop organically over time like it usually happens).

    P.S: I only read a few comments on the 1st page so I don't know if I'm echoing a different user.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  21. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    In terms of translation there are various options: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/12/15/guide-how-gender-neutral-language-is-developing-around-world/
     
  22. AbyssalJoey

    AbyssalJoey Active Member

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    I can only speak for spanish and Mexico myself, but I've yet to see anyone trying to do this not get mocked into the ground by the general population. As I mentioned in another post we Mexicans use equality less as be nice to everybody and more as open season to mock everyone and their hamsters, thus this kind of thing is like wearing a giant neon sign saying "please bully me to hell and back", don't know much about other languages and countries (except for some tidbits I get from some friends, which may or may not be biased against the linguistic change).
     
  23. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

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    Well if people are uninterested to the point of mockery in accomodating gender-neutral pronouns at all, I don't know why they would read a left-leaning book with a non-binary protagonist among the leads. So that would be a losing effort.
    There are over 7 billion people in the world, I can't possibly attempt to accomodate them all, or even expect them all to notice. I just need enough people from all that mass. I'm not expecting to turn a profit either. Why are people so concerned about my work's marketability yet so many threads have masses decrying the irrelevance of political correctness and celebrating the integrity of art for arts sake? I can only think people are approaching this issue with political bias.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
  24. AbyssalJoey

    AbyssalJoey Active Member

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    That is probably correct, tho from a general Mexican perspective more than left-leaning it would probably be considered either an overly fragile or a your life is so good you have nothing else to complain about perspective, most Mexicans do not speak nor read english and about 50% of the population lives in the poverty line so this would not register as a real issue to them let alone a political one.

    That is most certainly correct.

    Can't speak for others, my og post was more of a "this could be confusing (the use of they for the sibling in rhythm of war did throw me out for a loop even though I was aware of the use), and not for all publics so if that interests you beware also if you are interested in translation that may be an issue", the 3rd paragraph especially was more of a heads up if it was of your interest since I assumed that you were aware of the not great marketability but made a comment about it anyway cus I don't lose anything by doing so.

    Considering that you Americans (ok, to be fair is a good chunk if not the entire the anglosphere plus a few more countries) are basically having a cold civil war where this particular topic is quite prominent this is inebitable, in fact, some would argue that your work is going to be inherently political thus open to political criticism, I myself don't really care, I have more pressing stuff to worry about than a culture war on a bunch different countries.
     
  25. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    My question, after reading through this thread, is one I haven't seen dealt with yet ...maybe I missed it. If you use 'they/them' to refer to a single person who identifies as non-binary, what pronoun do you use when you are referring to several people at once, in your story? As in a group of, say, five friends together? I suppose you could change all THOSE pronouns to theys and thems to indicate the plural ...but I think that's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

    I have to say, I would happily (very happily) read a book with non-binary main characters, if these characters were designated with new pronouns. I would quickly learn the meaning of these new pronouns, and be immediately engrossed in the story, and would understand how these characters are different from the usual he and she characters.

    However, choosing to take a pronoun that actually means something else, and changing its meaning, willy-nilly—meaning it can no longer be used for its original purpose without confusion—does radically put me off. If I struggle to follow a storyline, I quit reading. Confusion is my number one reason for quitting reading a book.

    I feel if an issue is being looked at in a new way, it's begging for new descriptive words. Example: microwave. We talk about having a 'microwave' or putting something into the microwave for 10 minutes. We don't call it 'the oven' or 'the stove' because those words describe different sorts of appliances that are already in use. The new word for that modern device was quickly accepted and avoided confusion.

    I'd love to see that principle applied to gender diversity. If you're not a he or a she, and you exist in only one body, why not coin a new pronoun to describe you? The issue here isn't non-binary gender; it's the words being chosen to designate that gender. My thoughts, anyway....
     

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