Funny thing is, though, I really got the impression from most of these folk that they honestly don't think they can write something like a novel until they 'learn' how to do it first. There were a couple of women I remember speaking to, up at the book festival I attend regularly in the north of Scotland, who had just signed up for a couple of short courses at a writing retreat nearby. They were wanting to get started. They didn't think they could start unless they knew how. These were women who cared enough about reading to attend a literary book festival. I think they didn't feel confident enough to enter the writing arena with the authors we'd seen and heard, until they had some proper training under their belts. I remember saying "Well, I've nearly finished a novel myself. It's no great shakes and it needs a lot of work, but it was so much fun to write." Their response was "Oh, I wouldn't know where to start!" When I said "Just start—that's what I did," they stared at me as if I'd not quite caught the train.
I do understand that frame of mind. I need to know the 'rules' of something to feel comfortable doing it, so I like to be trained or at least given a thorough brief before I do something. With writing I never felt like that, perhaps because I was already being paid for writing in a different arena, but I definitely understand the mentality. Some of us really like to work with rules and within established boundaries, even if we start to break them once we're comfortable.
Maybe if we stopped calling them rules, as @Wreybies has already said, we'd do away with the (oh-so-off-putting-to-many) idea of orthodoxy. If you read a lot, you become aware of patterns (even if it's subconsciously*), and it's those patterns we are talking about when we talk about rules. So why not call them patterns? Then you can have conversations about patterns that seem to be prevalent in all of Western literature or conversations about unique patterns that do such and such... Perhaps the problem is the language we are using to have the debate and not the debate itself. *and no, you can't be a writer if you're not a reader – get over it #smiley face#
Yes, I can understand that approach. Everybody is different. I'm like that in certain areas of my life, for sure. I used to really enjoy getting a computer manual to help me get started on a new computer or operating system or programme. Now these don't exist, and I have to wing it most of the time. I'm getting more comfortable with that, but still wish there was a bloody printed manual! Maybe it all boils down to risk. Learning to do brain surgery, fly a plane, drive a car, work a computer ...these all carry risks if they're not done 'properly.' I'd want to learn what I need to know before getting into the driver's seat, for sure. Writing, however, is risk-free, especially if you're doing it—at least initially—for fun. It's also good to know that you don't need an extraneous boost to get started. You can take the initial step yourself and work from there. You can certainly start with boundaries and work within them until you're confident enough to break through them. Or you can start without them and learn what they are as you go. Horses for courses. I think it's all about approach, and what the approach does for you. If I'd begun writing by taking creative writing courses or reading how-to books, I would probably have been totally intimidated by what was expected, or what had gone before, and would have produced something far less original than I did. I actually remember telling myself when I started: just see what you end up with. You don't have to show it to anybody if it doesn't turn out. I didn't even tell anybody I was writing at all, till months later, when I had to fess up to my husband, because we were using the same computer. I made a promise to myself that I would write honestly, write exactly what I felt, not hold back, not mince words, and not write with any censor in mind. I let the story evolve freely. It was a very liberating feeling.
Hang the codes, and hang the rules! They're more like guidelines anyway! (...) I told you to keep to the code. Well, we figured they were more like guidelines than actual rules. --- Dammit, someone already ninja'd me. >:[
Hang the codes, and hang the rules! They're more like guidelines anyway! (...) I told you to keep to the code. Well, we figured they were more like guidelines than actual rules. --- Dammit, someone already ninja'd me. >:[
Sorry @Sal, I was a pig yesterday. The guy 'in my head' - in the memory...he was an old boy, ex-services, Isle of Wight, Rotary Club blazer and tie, really reactionary - stereotype. Every time one of the other writers on the OU forum, shy people posting their first ever creative forays - poems - 'this one's about my pain...' kind of posts, 'I've never shown anyone before,' he'd reply: 'What shit, why don't you write a bloody simple story, a beginning, middle and an end, I tell you, you people are communists and fools, lesbians.' He'd receive a flurry of hate posts, it was great. His writing was appalling, kind of brilliant: My National Service I remember the train. It was a steam train and I kissed mother goodbye on the doorstep, caught the train to barracks. I was late at the barracks, having purchased a return ticket to Didcott, when camp was actually based at Didcott junction, a two hour walk along the A37. Of course, it wasn't called the A37 back then, it was called the Didcott Road, if I recall. The Didcott Road, probably the fourth turning along the Didcott Road, or possibly the fifth, took one straight to barracks, and I received a flea in my ear that day...
Therein lies the rub, and what I think is often mistaken about writing courses. They can improve your capabilities, but not your abilities. Knowing how can help you write well, but if you can't write, you can't write and courses won't help that.
I don't agree. Assuming I'm understanding the distinction you're making here, which seems to be splitting hairs a bit. If you can't write, a course can certainly help you learn how to write. If you can already write, a course can make you better at it. Not every course is going to be good, but a good course can lead to improvement.
He isn't. A quick Google would have sorted that out. Like punctuation and good sentence structure? Pass. Again, a quick Google would have yielded useful information.
@matwoolf He sounds magnificent! My protest was more along the lines of sitting there sulking and when asked why I hadn't said anything I'd mumble something about 'I don't see why we have to have a hook. Any sense of "ooh, there's a mystery going on... can you guess what it is?!" would put me right off' or 'Why does there need to be conflict? I don't like people being horrible to each other. I'm not having any conflict in my stories.' I did an OU course too. Only five of us ever posted on the forum, which was a bit disappointing. We were all very nice to each other online.
Was that the Futurelearn course? I did that one! And, yes, the feedback was all very civilised. But the format we were required to respond to the writing exercises in was somewhat restricted.
Fortunately, it was all online, so nobody could see WHAT I was wearing... It sounds like, for a proper OU course for credits towards your degree, you had damned poor feedback/forum interactivity. No better than I got on Futurelearn...and that was a free 8-week course!
Everyone's different. We all process thoughts in unique ways. A person who has no sight would not have the same imagery as a person with. Our unique characteristics and personalities are displayed in our writing. For a person with OCD, structured courses may potentially be beneficial. For a beginner they may learn marketing tools or grab a copy of Elements of Style. Everyone writes they way they write. There's nothing wrong with getting a basic understanding of how your language works in written form. Many readers will immediately discard a book if the grammar, spelling, and punctuation is atrocious. There are editing programs for that, so it comes down to unwillingness to attempt to try; $25 and it does the work for you. For me? A creative writing seminar would be hell. A workshop, not as bad. A share & critique would suit me better. It's nice to meet people with the same hobbies as yourself. I'm just not the structured type. One of the magnets, on my fridge, is "Write drunk. Edit sober." I like to write by living. I get inspired more often by walking by myself. Left alone with my thoughts. Unless it's already panned out, I find other people distracting. I've gotten that before and it actually upset me a fair amount. "Do your own research." Okay, cool. I'll go pick up the big book of everything A - Z at the library. Once I know-it-all I'll get back to you. Wait, you had knowledge about the subject I asked about? You could have saved me from countless hours of research? You could of pointed me in the right direction, at the very least, but instead treated me like I'm lazy? Oh wait, you knew nothing about the subject. So even though I wasn't really directing my attention towards you I get a "do your own research" comment that lessens the chances of a real response. What are you a magician? Just gotta keep all the secrets, huh? It irks me. This is a forum themed after creative writing. What do you believe are the motivations for a person to join? 1) The user wishes to post their work for an audience to critique. 2) The user has questions pertaining to certain items of information (marketing, publishing, etc.). 3) The user wishes to seek help in developing their current work in progress. 4) The user is looking for motivation or inspiration to be creative. 5) The user is an experienced writer and wishes to share his/her knowledge. 6) The user is a published author seeking to promote their work. 7) The user is using this forum for a class course. 8) The user is simply passionate about creative writing. 9) The user wishes to collaborate with other authors or find beta/alpha readers. 10) The user is looking for support to encourage further writing. 11) The user wishes to have a medium for sharing accumulated knowledge. 12) The user is in an isolated location thus seeks online resources. For me, I joined because I don't know everything. No matter how much some people may think they do... they really don't. If I ask for help with my plot development that means I'm unfamiliar with certain subjects. This is an international forum with a diverse range of ages and experiences. There are people that may be EXPERTS on the subject I wish to write on. Now I could have a few questions about my world development that could take countless hours of research to find out. I could also use incorrect sources or spend hours simply locating the correct one(s). Instead I come to this forum and spend a few minutes posting a thread. In no shape or form is any user obligated to reply. But then that expert comes along and answers my questions based off YEARS of experience. It's the Information Age people, knowledge should always be free. Done ranting, I just get a little filed up when I see people doing things that can be detrimental to a young writer. You have to remember that we have a younger demographic as well. Not everyone has been around the block and knows where to start. Instead of a blanket response post some useful links. Hell, I'd love a detailed sticky guide on how to properly research from multiple authors with years of experience. Most people just use Google.
Funny you would use Stephen King to illustrate needing no education in writing to be a writer. He has a degree in English and even taught it at the high school level. The kind of thing you're talking about—going against the rules of writing and English—is something that can only be done effectively after understanding what the rules are so you can break them effectively. I never tried a high-speed car chase on a slippery road until I not only knew how to drive by the rules, but also knew my car like the back of my hand.
OK, after having read the responses so far I think: I AM SOMEWHAT OPPOSED TO SOME CREATIVE WRITING COURSES
Having taken some creative writing courses in college - mixed bag depending on what you want to write. And yeah, there were elements I found deeply anti-productive as a genre writer - but they did say up-front that no genre-fiction was allowed in class. Do I feel I got a ton out of it - well I got workshop experience and still learned how to sharpen a story - and I learned what literary fiction was and that I'm not particularly into it. And I learned a lot about technique. These days I prefer resources aimed at genre fiction writers, and I do still rant about the literary pretentions of that course - but the course did have some good stuff.
But. But. You say "would be". That suggests that you haven't been to one. So how do you know enough about what it would be like, to know you wouldn't like it? Aren't you making assumptions about what it would be like?
I often give that kind of advice, but not for the reason you may think. I do often point a person in the direction of useful research, if I have a clue where that might lie. If I've discovered useful links, I will not hesitate to share them. (Check the Research threads for ones I've started.) And asking for specific information from experts in the field—if they happen to be on the forum—is a fantastic way to do research. You get the specific, personal view that can be incredibly helpful, if accuracy is your goal. The clue here is 'specific.' Asking if somebody on the forum knows how to set a broken bone is different from asking 'what should my character's job be?' As a writer, you need to be able to solve your own story problems, decide your own plot issues, develop your own characters. There is a fine line between getting really REALLY stuck on something, working on it for ages, looking everywhere for that tidbit, coming up with nothing and finally asking for help ...and asking for help every time you hit a snag or need to make a choice. I feel this can become a real crutch for some folks, and will inhibit their writing no end. In other words, a writer can't progress till somebody else gives them ideas, or they can't figure out a story problem unless tons of other people weigh in with various solutions. Hi there! I'm JK Rowling. I'm writing this book about a wizard school and I'm wondering if I should give the children magic wands? Or would it better to just have them learn spells? And should my main character be a boy or a girl? Which do you think is better? Hi, I'm Ernest Hemingway, and my story is set during a war, but should it be the Spanish Civil War, or WW2? What do you guys think? This IS writing by committee. I know there will be yowls of protest from people who work this way, but I think it's a mistake. Figuring out what you want to write and telling your own story your own way is WHY you write, isn't it? Do you really need other people to tell you what they think you ought to do? And yes, you do need to do your own research most of the time. If you hate going through the encyclopedia from A-Z, you're missing out on a lot. It's the digging in, the unexpected bits you turn up while doing serious research that actually throws ideas your way. If you just go for the easy/superficial stuff that everybody knows, you're missing out on a very rich vein of material. This richness will be reflected in your writing. It'll give you lots more to work with. And be honest here. How much time and effort are you willing to put in, doing somebody else's research for them? That's what you're asking us to do for you.
