1. Writeorflight

    Writeorflight Active Member

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    I can’t tell if my plot is fantasy enough

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by Writeorflight, Aug 28, 2022.

    I’m writing a YA fantasy romance series, and I’m completely stuck on the plot of book 1.

    My first book introduces two main characters: 1) a witch who has always lived in hiding, and 2) a witch hunter who has grown up with the expectation to kill.

    These two characters meet when they are young, and form an unlikely friendship. This is a buddy-love story (for those who know Save the Cat!) that focuses on the origin of their friendship with just the hints of a romance in the last half of the book.

    My problem is this: I first pictured the plot being very similar to Call Me By Your Name, where the main plot is the two characters spending several weeks in the same house/vicinity and becoming really close friends (until everything goes to sh!t in the finale).

    My worry is, the friendship/romance plot is too heavy-handed to suit the Fantasy genre. In which case, the main plot should feature a fantastical adventure where they become really close during that time.

    To summarize: As someone who plans on publishing, does a fantasy book that focuses on friendship/romance need a larger adventure or fantasy plot than just the friendship/romance itself?
     
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  2. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

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    If it is set in a different world, with magic/magical elements, it is fantasy.
    Fantasy Romance is still fantasy

    For additional guidance, here are genres definitions from QueryTracker
    Where Does Your Book Fit?
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
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  3. trevorD

    trevorD Senior Member

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    Thank you. I benefitted from this. :)
     
  4. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I think this might be relvant here. It was posted yesterday on another thread. Near the beginning Sanderson talks about two different aspects of plot—what he calls the umbrella plot, which is the generic plot, almost a formula. That would be fantasy or in this case I suppose fantasy/romance. Then within this plot there's also the specific plot (I foget what he calls it), which is your storyline—the specific things that happen that move the story along. You have to think about both to make a successful story.



    I guess the point is you want to make sure your specific plot doesn't derail the umbrella plot by going against the beats that define it.
     
  5. Banespawn

    Banespawn Member

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    It sounds like the witch hunter has been indoctrinated into the life at an early age. If the witch is always in hiding, how do they meet? Does the witch hunter know the witch is, in fact, a witch? Does the witch know the other is a witch hunter? Or do they both learn these things later in the story?

    You're going to need things other than their relationship to sustain the story. You'll need conflict. Witch hunters hunting witches can provide a good amount of conflict. Since the story is more about the 2 characters, I wouldn't make either side necessarily good or bad, just with opposing beliefs and goals. The conflict between them needs to build toward something, some outcome that, if it should come to pass, would be very bad for one side or the other, if not both. You will give you an external plot that can push and pull on their relationship. I would also have them both keep secret that they belong to each group, at least in the beginning. Keeping it a secret will put strains on their relationship, as will the eventual reveal.

    The bottom line is, don't make it easy on your characters. If the ultimate goal is that they become friends, throw a bunch of obstacles in that path. Give them both internal and external things that they have to deal with, that challenge the relationship.
     
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  6. Louanne Learning

    Louanne Learning Happy Wonderer Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Contest Winner 2022

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    The short answer is yes. If people wanted realism, they wouldn't read fantasy. Fantasy gives us that escape from reality we all crave.
     
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  7. Writeorflight

    Writeorflight Active Member

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    Due to societal expectations, the hunter searches for his first witch to kill, which is how the characters meet. They both know the identity of the other from the start (with some possibly damaging secrets that involve their families and past history revealed later on) and go from untrustworthy enemies, to hesitant friends, to best friends.

    I have a solid ending in mind, where their unlikely friendship causes immense rifts and jumpstarts the beginning of a culture war between hunters and witches.

    I guess I’m just unsure if the character’s goals are something larger than just their friendship, with their friendship being an unintended consequence of their goals (and ultimately being their true goals). Or if the friendship is their goal the entire time, with no overarching fantastical adventure. If that makes any sense.
     
  8. Writeorflight

    Writeorflight Active Member

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    Thank you! I appreciate your perspective. I’ll keep that in mind.
     
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  9. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    Fantasy is a really wide set of genres. In fact, there is such a thing as paranormal romance, which is just one subset of fantasy wherein there is a huge focus on romance with some touch of fantasy (huge or tiny). Paranormal romance, in turn, has two main genres, one where the focus is almost entirely on the romance, and the other where the focus falls more on the fantasy. Not to beat the horse, but there are other branches of fantasy wherein romance can be a big element. Think of it like how many fantasy writers choose to make their fantasy books into murder mysteries. Those are two things, fantasy and mystery. One can dominate the other.

    Just considering books like Dead in the Dark by Charlaine Harris (True Blood). That book (and the subsequent 13 others) is a romance, a fantasy and a mystery. That falls under the general heading of urban fantasy.

    To me, the one unanswered question from your post is what the fantasy element is. Is there any element of magic in the book? I, personally, write bunches of paranormal (and other) fantasy books, and I enjoy severely limiting my magical element, often growing it through the book and often having a MC who is clueless as it materializes. I might have a person who realizes that they are half vampire, for example, which explains how quick they are to sunburn and how they sometimes don't know their own strength or have compulsions. Magic, to me, is more interesting if it's not bang-over-the-head stuff or a pixie every other page. But, if it is going to be fantasy, there ought to be something in there to suggest you put it on the proper shelf. Everything else about the book is as open as you want.

    Let me offer one more example. I wrote one book about a woman who was cursed to be a succubus. As the book progressed, she realized what she had become. Simultaneous to this, she developed a love interest with a deli owner. She really liked him, and he was kind of liking her, too, but as the story progressed, her succubus nature made it impossible for her to get past 1st base with this romance, and though the story arc and character arc were both fulfilled, the romance was left with one of those, "I'll call you," kind of things where you know he isn't. You mentioned this kind of thing, so I thought I'd bring that book up because it shows that a romance need not end with two people walking down an aisle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
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  10. Banespawn

    Banespawn Member

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    Friendship can be their goal, but if that's their only goal, it's not something that is going to take an entire novel to come to fruition. If they both want to be friends, they will be friends. Think about Romeo and Juliet. They start out as lovers and all of the problems with their relationship come from their respective families. You can do something like that if you want, but then there's no arc of them starting out as potential enemies and, over time, becoming friends and more than friends.

    Often, developing a relationship is not a conscious goal. If you want to show the arc of their relationship, then at least one of them needs to be opposed to the idea. Since they both know to which group the other belongs, I would think they would both be opposed to the relationship at the start. So the relationship develops despite their goals, not because of them. Regardless, your characters need more goals than just friendship. The witch hunter has the goal of killing his first witch. Failure to do so will cause issues for him within his group. But even that probably isn't enough, as it doesn't make it difficult enough for them. You need to find a way to raise the stakes, and put their relationship in the middle of it.

    Take a deeper dive into each group. The witch hunters' ultimate goal is to rid the world of witches. The witches' ultimate goal is to eliminate the threat of the witch hunters once and for all. So think about what each group might do to achieve those ultimate goals. Think about Star Wars: A New Hope. It wasn't just the rebels vs the empire. The empire built the ultimate weapon with the goal to completely destroy the rebellion. The rebels didn't destroy the empire. They destroyed the death star and thwarted the empire's plan. What plans do your witches and/or witch hunters have that will help them to achieve their ultimate goal? You may need to go deeper into the magic, to figure out how one side or the other could eliminate the other side for good. Maybe the witch hunters, instead of killing witches one at a time, take a different approach. Maybe they learn the source of the witches' magic and come up with a plan to destroy the source. No more magic, no more witches. However, unknown to both sides, the magic protects their world from some evil, and destroying the source would release that evil. Now there are consequences of failure. There are serious stakes. You don't need to go that big with it, though. You could have the stakes be less world threatening and more personal. Either way, there needs to be some potential negative consequences for the characters. Their relationship should have ramifications on the rest of the story.

    It sounds like you want the relationship to be the primary focus of the story, so maybe a better example would be Despicable Me. Gru wants to steal the moon so he can prove that he's the world's best villain. What he needs, but doesn't realize it, is family. While pursuing his goal, events push him toward change, until finally he abandons his goal to achieve what he really needs. Use that as a model for building your story. What goals do your characters have, that they will need to abandon at the end, in favor of the relationship?
     
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  11. Quote

    Quote Member

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    First, I would like to say that I really like your premise. Keep running with it. Based on my limited experience with YA, that sounds like something that would find a good home on their shelves.
    With that said, I just want to address this section here and maybe somebody already has. My thoughts when it comes to a genre like Fantasy is that it's just seasoning, and the story is the meal. That might be a poor metaphor, but what I mean is that I don't think you should worry about making the plot suit the genre. Tell the story you want to tell and if you want to tell it within a Fantasy setting, then do that. A story about love or revenge is still just that, with or without witches and witch-hunters. Genre setting is important, but it is also something that can be tackled along with marketing after the book is set to be published. Because then you'll start getting into the lovely sub-genres such as Epic Fantasy (which I would absolutely agree that you should consider exploring a broader scope) or High Fantasy (what some might consider a less world-threatening and more personal adventure). There might be Fantasy sets out there that sort-of transition from one sub-genre to another as the books progress (an argument could be made that Harry Potter went from something of a High Fantasy story with Harry's personal journey being focused on to an Epic Fantasy where the fate of the world is potentially at stake).

    I guess what I'm suggesting is that you write the story that you want to write and don't worry if your plot is "Fantasy enough".

    Edit: Best of luck with your writing! :]
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
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  12. Writeorflight

    Writeorflight Active Member

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    The fantasy elements are the cultures (the witches, hunters, and maybe other groups), the magic that the witches practice, and potentially magical creatures or locations.

    Similar to yours, the ending isn’t a traditional happy-ever-after for my characters, but I want it to be open ended, and slightly unresolved, which will pave the way for book 2.

    I’m glad to hear there are so many genres and varieties, so I can play with it a bit and not feel too stuck to having to write it a certain way. While the relationship is the focus, I still want it to firmly be a fantasy story too.

    Thanks so much for your advice. I appreciate it!
     
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  13. Gary Wed

    Gary Wed Active Member

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    Great. I suspected that you have fantasy elements, but I missed it. Maybe my bad. The point being, if it has fantasy elements in it, it's some sub-genre of fantasy, so do not sweat that at all. The issue of character arcs is still going to be there. On that issue, the only thing to overly worry about is that you have one for your MC. And that you have an MC) not two). Even though they don't end up walking down the aisle, your MC should have some flaws or baggage or issues that are settled in a different way by the end of the novel. That, in fact, defines the novel. That's how you know it ends. So, beyond the unresolved romance, what arc does your MC have? Big, giant issue for any writer, and something they ought to give heavy thought to, as they begin the novel's first few chapters.

    The other thing I hope to give you is the advice to never overplay this notion of leaving a morsal out there at the end of a novel. I strongly advise against it. Readers are not going to come back to your work because you left a hanger. That is a major fallacy that writers share. Readers come back to you because your work left them satisfied. Thus, my advice is to avoid the cliff hanger, and instead write a good book with its own arc and its own resolution, one that they can set down and sigh over.

    This has a double benefit because readers could also pick up book two and not have to read the first one. Each book is usually best if it is one thing, even in a series. There are tons of exceptions to this, but think about it. What if this is your first novel? How good is it going to be? If the second book is 100% better than the first (and it ought to be), what are you going to do, then? If the bookstore has books 3 and 4, but not books 1 and 2...? And what is a good book? A good book. That's capital A.
     
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  14. Writeorflight

    Writeorflight Active Member

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    This is exactly what I needed clarification on! Your suggestions and examples have helped me so much in clarifying what I’m aiming for and need to change.

    I had the idea that there is a mythological object with lots of versatile power, and both the witch and the hunter would want to find it for different reasons. So they “temporarily” agree to work together and go on a quest to find this object that’d help them achieve their separate goals (as they become friends along the journey). But near the end of the book, they realize it’s not their outside goals that’ll give them what they need in life, but each other that is the most important.
    So they must confront what their friendship/relationship means to their different sides, and what they’re willing to risk to keep it. But by fighting for their friendship, the cost has major ramifications.

    I’m still not cemented on anything yet, but maybe by following this new structure it’ll resemble more of what I’m looking for, and the story will slowly emerge somehow.

    thanks a bunch for your comment and advice! I really appreciate it.
     
  15. Writeorflight

    Writeorflight Active Member

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    Thank you so much! That means a lot to hear that. I so often doubt my capabilities, my ideas, and my stories, so I really appreciate your vote of confidence!

    you make a bunch of really good points. I do picture it being very similar to Harry Potter, with book 1 basically being an origin story for the characters, and then diving into more of the world and the war between sides within the sequels.

    I’ve been frequently told I focus too much on statistics and structures. I’m just such a perfectionist, I want to make sure my books are the best they can be. But I know I do sometimes lose sight of the real goal: telling the story I want to tell. Thanks for the reminder.

    Thank you so much for your comment, knowledge, and advice! I sincerely appreciate it.
     
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  16. Writeorflight

    Writeorflight Active Member

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    Thanks for the video suggestion! I ended up watching the whole video, Sanderson is a fantastic teacher and very informative.

    It sounds like the core of my plot is friendship/romance, and the umbrella plot is any outside fantasy happenings. Which definitely implies there should be more going on in the plot than just the relationship.

    Thank you for commenting and sharing the video, I really appreciate it!
     
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  17. Mr magician

    Mr magician Member

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    Don't worry, a thousand people have a thousand Hamlets, and a thousand fantasy writers have a thousand fantasy styles. In the field of fantasy theme, there are both the bright and magnificent 《Lord of the ring》 and the dark reality of the 《Witcher》, but they are all fantasy works, no doubt. What is important is what the author hopes to add to the story, what is presented, what is brought to the reader, and what kind of story the author hopes to create.
     
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  18. MartinM

    MartinM Banned

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    @Writeorflight

    Some wonderful replies already. Not sure I can help with an answer, but must point you to watch this. Love Death & Robots Volume I episode8 “Good Hunting”. Set in China father and son track down and kill shape shifting fox like creatures. Starts very fantasy, turns to a love story and later into steampunk with political overtures. No more spoilers...

    It covers everything and more, splitting genres and ideal for YAs. Give it a look and let us know...

    MartinM.
     
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