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  1. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    I can tell you (don't) have money by...

    Discussion in 'Research' started by Iain Aschendale, Dec 28, 2018.

    MC is a spiritualist/con-artist, and as such, he needs to be able to quickly get a read on a potential victim client's financial status without asking. Looking at their clothes, car, house, jewelry, things like that. I've got two scenarios that I'd like some help brainstorming.

    Scenario one: House-poor, not that well off, trying to keep up appearances. The house is a McMansion in a gated community, but it's down towards the far end of the development. MC will not actually meet the family, but he'll have access to the house for a while. The ideas I have are:

    1) a space for a transom over the front door, but there's no window. As in, other houses in the development have gorgeous stained-glass arches, but this one has a plain section of whatever the exterior walling is, with the arch visible. They couldn't afford that option when they bought the house.

    2) Formica countertops, not marble.

    3) A fairly plain, stock fridge, not something with a facade that matches the cabinets, or a glass door, just a decent Frigidaire or some such.

    4) The flatscreen in the living room can't be more than 32 inches by his estimate, it looks too small for the room.

    5) Ikea?

    Other suggestions? They can afford (barely, or maybe almost can afford) the house in a higher-end neighborhood, but they're struggling and don't really belong there.

    Scenario two: The opposite. A well-to-do widow who still lives in the house that she and her husband bought when they were young. It's a good, solid house with a small yard (garden for you UK types), but unassuming. The other plots in the neighborhood have had their original structures demolished and replaced by big, gaudy monstrosities that go right up to the property line, but her house is an oasis of quiet taste. Think of her living in one of the two smaller houses in the graphic below while the rest of the neighborhood has transitioned to the two larger ones:

    [​IMG]

    Within the house, and on her person, however, is evidence that it's not money that's at issue. Ideas:

    1) Hardwood floors, possibly parquet flooring.

    2) Leather sofa/overstuffed armchair

    3) Expensive knick-knacks (and if you can suggest any specific ones, that would be great. She's in her 70s).

    4) Her jewelry. Had a student once who favored raw sapphires set in diamonds, I'm thinking about stealing that for her.

    5) Her clothing. Where do conservatively well-dressed older ladies with money shop? My overall image of her is similar to the late Nancy Reagan (less jewelry), but I've got no idea where she'd have gone shopping.

    [​IMG]

    MC will recognize brands, or at least the stores the clothes were bought at. Speaking of which, women's shoes... There's a topic to look into.

    Any other good signifiers of being financially unconcerned/keeping the wolf from the door to maintain your ZIP code?
     
  2. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    1. How new is their tech? Latest iphone or old android.
    2. Any bills or bank statements that may be lying on the table or found when rifling through their trash
    3. What are their jobs and what are the income averages associated with them?
    4. Subscriptions to services, magazines
    5. How new is their car?
    6. Shop at walmart or whole foods?
    7. Perfumes, makeup, lipstick, cosmetics; is it possible to judge how expensive these are just by looking at a person?
    8. Do they fly first class or economy?

    Basically, I'd look for expenses that are recurring and whether they choose the cheap option or expensive option on those.
     
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  3. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    All good ideas, but #6 is excellent, thanks very much!
     
  4. jim onion

    jim onion New Member

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    Food can be a subtle indicator. Lots of five dollar pizzas, inexpensive junk food, or are they shopping at the high-and-mighty Whole Foods?

    EDIT: Damn, was beaten to it.
     
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  5. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    If they're keeping up appearances, it could be possible they've got a very well furnished kitchen and living area for entertaining, but the rest of the house is sparsely decorated with the kind of furniture most people have in their first apartment during college minus the beer cans on the shelf over their bed. Though living beyond one's means can be pretty stressful, so signs of substance abuse in the house might be fitting. Jewelry, accessories, and bags might be the cheap, third world, look legit from 30 yards and half covered by a jacket variety.
     
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  6. Hammer

    Hammer Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Don't know whether it's the same elsewhere, but in the UK the car on the drive can say a lot.

    If it's a brand new, ostentatious, mid-range vehicle you can pretty much guarantee that it's bought on HP. A less flashy, high-end, older vehicle would be more indicative of wealth. A fairly beaten up old banger can mean either...


    ETA with regard to the more elderly lady's attire - if the clothes have a "designer" label they're more likely to be for show. If there is a very simple name tag of someone you have never heard of they are probably more likely to be extremely expensive. If you can pick up a jacket and wonder how someone so frail can carry a heavy thing like that around, it cost an eye-watering amount but will be passed to the grand-kids...
     
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  7. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Car isn't in the driveway, but the oil stains might be. Do modern cars still leak oil if not properly maintained? I haven't owned one in ages.
     
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  8. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think it is immediately obvious when someone is house poor, because they will take risks or use credit cards like other people. I've known some incredibly rich people with mismatched old furniture, frayed rugs, dilapidated pools, old cars. Most people who are rich are rich because they are concerned with their investments and don't overspend. They drive cars until they die and become millionaires.

    Rich people I know have odd things, like 10 year old clothing, but they will be wearing a 2000 dollar watch that needs to be polished, which they don't think anything of. It was a gift "and nice" so they wear it, but it isn't status. Status is where their names get read, and what it says on their business cards.

    So, if you are house poor, you get stressed over small things. People drinking too much milk at dinner. Friends coming over and drinking your beer. Having to mow your big ass lawn yourself, even though you are tired from your 60 hour work week. Being embarrassed your spouse has to drop you off at work because your beater stopped running.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  9. Hammer

    Hammer Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I think that would be unusual
     
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  10. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    Good to know, so much has changed since I left the US. Back then, 70k miles and a car was done, now I see vehicles pushing way past 100,000 and no one is amazed.

    I'm a dinosaur.
     
  11. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    My current vehicle, a 98 Chev 3/4 ton, has around 350,000 km on it and I expect to get another 100,000 out of it before it dies. I couldn't tell you if a poorly maintained modern vehicle leaks oil, though. They usually aren't that modern and I generally try to keep them well serviced. The only time I've had a vehicle leak oil was when there was something really wrong with it. Like don't even try to pull it out of the driveway 'cause you'll end up with a push rod through the oil pan wrong.
     
  12. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    When I was young, I used to call that "Tuesday."

    Last car I had was a 94 Chevy which was nearly new when I bought it, but pushing that old 70,000 mile/110,000km designed obsolescence limit. That was 2001 though, since then it's all been rentals.
     
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  13. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Thinking
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  14. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    Depends on the country you're after. The "middle" class amongst the Czechs on average live on the same standard as the "lower" class in the UK. What I'd consider poor, as a Brit, is actually average and perfectly normal amongst the Czechs.

    The size of someone's flat is an obvious sign - how well it's decorated on the inside too. Do the pieces match, are the colours well thought-out? Is there a uniform style throughout the place? Because interior design is for the rich. Most people can't afford to spend hundreds and thousands on a dining table just because the colour of its wood matches the floor. What about their car? What make is it and how old is it? You can tell from the license plate - and is it well-maintained? Meaning the person probably takes it to be cleaned often, which is again, money. I'd look at their fridge - is it full of ready meals, full of basics like butter and frozen or canned vegetables, basic bread and such? Or is it full of free range eggs, soya or coconut milk, fresh fruit and veg, good cuts of meat? What kinds of fruit - apples and oranges or are they mangos and melon? What about the windows - single or double glazed? What about the residential area? Clutter is usually a sign of being poor as well.
     
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  15. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    But those examples are all so contrary. I suppose that's part of the problem - the perception through a writers/or a character's eyes...SUBJECTIVE

    "pieces match, ...colours well thought-out. Because interior design is for the rich" WARNING SIGNAL 1, indicators of aspiration - probably a poor person.

    "Most people can't afford to spend hundreds and thousands on a dining table just because the colour of its wood matches the floor"
    ONLY SOME GHASTLY CHROME PILLOCK

    "apples and oranges or are they mangos and melon?"
    TRADITIONAL FRUITS OR [SHUDDER]

    "What about the windows - single or double glazed? DOUBLE-GLAZING!!!!!? ON MY 14c THATCH!!

    "Clutter is usually a sign of being poor as well." NO.
     
  16. Stormsong07

    Stormsong07 Contributor Contributor

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    A big indicator would be the timing of the spending. AKA...first of the month, they're eating out, buying groceries, etc. But by the 10th-14th, they'd be penny pinching hardcore, staying home, not spending hardly anything except necessities- milk, bread, diapers, etc. Paycheck-to-paycheck living....when the money gets slim, they don't do much.
     
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  17. EBohio

    EBohio Banned

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    Watch, or re-watch the movie "Sunset Blvd." Your widow sounds like Norma Desmond and your MC sounds like the William Holden character.
     
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  18. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think things would be more subtle than your original list, if the struggling people are still trying to APPEAR wealthy. Like, they wouldn't have a small TV - they'd have a large one, but it would be poorer quality. Same thing with the fridge. The low-end brands are getting pretty good at giving every kitchen appliance a fancy looking stainless steel finish, but the internal workings aren't good quality. Maybe there's evidence of water damage on the floor by the fridge?

    Really, what's stood out for me among the really wealthy, "old-money" style people I've known has been the breadth of experiences they've had. Maybe there's a wall of photos from the older woman's early days, pictures of her in Africa and Asia and barefoot on the beach and skiing in the mountains and whatever. Horses, probably. Books in French. Maybe there's a casual note from a grandchild thanking grandma for the new skiis at Xmas, along with a shot of the kid skiing down a mountain with a helicopter in the background. When you're looking at old money, I don't think it's about what they have, it's about what they do.

    ETA: There's an episode of The Simpsons in which Marge buys a Chanel suit at Goodwill and it changes everyone's attitudes toward her. I'm not sure if The Simpsons counts as "research", but it might give some ideas? (the Nancy Reagan picture looks Chanel-esque, to my untrained eye)
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
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  19. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

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    All the homes I've been to where the families were well-off have always had good interior design with matching pieces and really, no clutter at all. I'm talking about people who send their children off to universities abroad while still having the money to own a car, have their own property, and go on luxurious holidays etc. No, these aren't people with delusions of grandeur. And I've been to the homes of those who are far less well-off, including a friend who used to be homeless - trust me, clutter galore, usually the result of a lack of living space, honestly. Or look into Hong Kong's cage homes. You don't live in cage homes if you're well-off.

    The fruits aspect could be an influence of me living in the Czech Republic - exotic fruits are always more expensive. But back in the time of communism, people got oranges or bananas gift-wrapped under the Christmas tree (my husband's granddad remembers one such Christmas when his whole family shared a single precious orange). Fresh produce in general indicate a certain financial status, because these things just go really fast and you can't afford to have tonnes of it every single day unless you have a certain financial status. In the Czech Republic, I've noticed, health foods and fresh fruits and veg are definitely an indication of class - the poorer families don't care half as much about these things.

    But then again, when I wrote my first post, I did say it really depends on which country you're referring to ;) Indicators of wealth could differ from culture to culture. If you had a garden in the UK, people wouldn't think twice as that's a given. If you had a sauna in your Finnish home, well who cares, that's a standard. Try having a garden in the middle of Hong Kong or a sauna in your house in the UK - that would certainly be an indication that that family's rich. And if you owned a car in Hong Kong (supposedly they charge 100% tax, plus you'll have to contend with the lack of space so imagine parking) - whereas owning a car in the UK is standard, and in the US it's even more standard. I've heard it's standard to own a pool in Florida, whereas again by European standards that would be rich. Or air con in HK is a standard but if you had air con in the Czech Republic, you're probably well-off.

    It all depends on: what's the norm and cultural expectations of the country, and how does this family differ from this?
     
  20. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    That's fine. I've dined with working class Slovak people in a horrible Bratislava tower block. I put on about 2 stone eating Czech & Slovak food.

    My point was about subjectivity and class, and a writer's own inescapable [or not] tether.

    @Iain's character was 'old money...'

    And whilst in one context living in a 'Grand Design' house might be indicative of wealth, in another - the guy with his one sofa, lamp shape and Bang & Oluffsen surround sound scene is very tragic. It's really quite difficult - a 'marble top' in the kitchen - to my mother's generation was the height of style '85 - but now rather more naff. Exotic fruits - almost political - the Duchess would have only the fruits of her garden on display - refrigerated flight being so gauche on the conscience.

    There's hundreds of ways to go with this.
     
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  21. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    [Well, I vouch] that an English writer would parody or twist this 'middle lower-middle class' behaviour, you can't help yourself, there's no simple 'face value' context.
     
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  22. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    Asking without asking.

    1. I call you and tell that I arrange appointments to financical counseling...

    2. My sidekick asks you about your holidays.

    3. Art.

    4. Social media. If they try to look rich, they are poor.

    5. Books. A lot of books about investing and finance or...

    But...

    You are mistaken. A con artist does not need to find out fast who is a good victim and who is not. He needs to find it out slowly.

    He spreads his nets wide and drags them so slowly that no one notices then. Even when his net touches the potential victim, the victim does not notice it because of the slow, slow pace.

    Let's say...

    Your con artist goes to the long period parking lot of some big airport. He seeks expensive cars that stay there long. He takes photos off license plates... tens or hundreds of them.

    Then he goes home and seeks all the information about cars and owners. Then he seeks information from social media. Facebook. LinkedIn...

    He seeks company info of work places.

    Now his list of hundred cars has transformed to a list of 17 families.... And no one has seen him near any houses... Not one security camera has his picture...

    The work of con artist is more like the work of identity thief than the work of burglar.
     
  23. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    How does he connect the license plates to the owners?

    There aren't places in the world where this is public information, are there?!?
     
  24. Alan Aspie

    Alan Aspie Banned Contributor

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    OFF TOPIC


    German, Czech or Swedish cars use to be reasonably OK around the range of 30o ooo - 400 000 km.

    I have had VW Passat TDI 1.9 with 400 000km and it was good.

    Now I am driving Skoda Octavia Scout 2.0TDI 4WD with 300 ooo km and it is fine.

    And I tell you that weather in Finland is not easy to cars. And in the winter time they salt roads. It's harsh for the body of a car. (100% galvanised is ok here.)

    Better cars can handle more kilometers.

    Edit: If car motors in USA wear down fast, it might bepartly
    because of fuel. In the USA it is allowed to sell total crap as diesel or gasoline. You can't sell that kind of horse piss in EU and call it fuel.

    The incredibly low technological level of fuel is the main reason that modern diesel passenger cars are so rare in USA. MB, VW (Audi, Skoda, VW, Seat...), BMW... sell their diesel cars in EU and Asia. Americans get almost only gasoline engine cars.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  25. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    Yeah, it's actually not even that hard, but you're supposed to have a good reason for doing so and have to subscribe to a public record database provider or know someone else with a subscription.
     

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