Tags:
  1. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes Received:
    1,683

    Say “Hello” during the Warring States / Han Dynasty of China

    Discussion in 'Research' started by John Calligan, May 8, 2018.

    Does anyone have any recommendations for books or websites with nitty-gritty details about how people greeted one another, depending on social class or time period or military service?

    I guess the ideal book would be called, “Understanding Ancient Chinese Etiquette for WesternWriters.”
     
  2. FifthofAscalante

    FifthofAscalante Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2017
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    53
    The first thing that comes to mind is the movie Mongol (2006?), where the story starts with two traveling parties meeting in the steppes. They greet each other by having a servant deliver a vessel of milk to the other party’s leader. It’s actually more of a challenge and test than a greeting. Minor spoiler alert: in this movie, it doesn’t lead to friendship. This is before the Yuan dynasty was established, but it’s essentially the same period. It’s an excellent movie, by the way, though probably have seen it.

    Also, the question is complicated, because Yuan were Mongols, so the upper eschelons would adhere to Mongol traditions, before becaming Sinified, and Islamised. Most of the population would be Confucian Han, but the empire encompassed Muslim Persia, and Christian Russia, and even Java with primitive tribes. Each having distinct religion, culture, skin tone, and technology, they could not be any more different. Actually, if I’m not mistaken, the Yuan Empire was first ever to, by law, protect and allow different religious traditions, which in turn means different greetings.

    So yeah... Not helpful at all x(
     
  3. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes Received:
    1,683
    Thanks for the tips, I’ll check that stuff out. I found some resources as well.
     
  4. Dragon Turtle

    Dragon Turtle Deadlier Jerry

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    453
    Likes Received:
    878
    I got nothing. However, in my extensive research into the Totally Reliable Source (tm) of "all the historical Chinese dramas I've watched," it seems like you just greet people by their title? Hey, if it's good enough for a Chinese audience, it's good enough for me.

    Ahem. I mean. What resources did you find? 'Cause I'm curious too.
     
    Mckk and John Calligan like this.
  5. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes Received:
    1,683
    I actually went to the library and got a couple items: "Foundations of Chinese Civilization" by Jing Liu, and "The Water Kingdom" by Philip Ball. In Liu's book, he mentions another historical book:

    https://ia800208.us.archive.org/28/items/iliorbookofetiqu01stee/iliorbookofetiqu01stee_bw.pdf

    That PDF has some deep looks into how people ideally conducted themselves.

    Then ;) I started watching "Nirvana in Fire" on ROKU. I know it's not a primary source, but I figure if I can understand the customs in a way that Chinese people find good enough for their own cinema, I'll be closer to what I want.

    I compiled a bunch of Chinese cultural links off the net. A lot of it has to do with modern business practices, while some of it is ambiguously defined, but there is enough history in them that with the TV shows, I think I'm getting what I want.
     
  6. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    I watched a lot of period Chinese movies, made in China, not of the Jackie Chan variety, researching The Eagle and the Dragon. Some were all in Chinese with footnotes and sometimes even without those.

    The most common greeting, especially to one of high status, was a peculiar bow that begins with the body erect, eyes downcast. One brings the up arms, crossed before the face, fists clenched and touching knuckle to knuckle, to form sort of a horizontal ring before your face. You dip your head into that ring, and hold it until the greetee verbally acknowledges you.

    For very high status individuals, such as the emperor, the greetee would be seated on some sort of dais. The greetee would enter bowed then go prostrate, sitting on ones legs, head bent to the ground, sort of a Muslim prayer position. When acknowledges, the greeter would straighten to a sitting position, but eyes would always be downcast, no eye contact. On departure, the person would back out of the room the way they entered, bowed.

    For friends, families and equals, it seemed to be a simple, "hello" not too different from Western styles.
     
  7. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,479
    Likes Received:
    1,683
    @Lew thanks for the tips. I like how you described the bow. I always thought bowing would be more routine in older periods, but it seems like it’s only used when greeting someone higher status, farewells and greetings that matter, apologies and thanks. Then the palm-fist salute gets added in when it’s extra important (meeting the emperor, apologizing to avoid a fight).

    How about when meeting your own parents, or when serving someone in restaurant. It seems like there is something to servants standing at kind of a half bow when people walk past them?
     
  8. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    My most personal experience is with the Japanese custom, but I suspect it is very similar, a half bow from the waist, maybe 20 or 30 degrees, held momentarily, used for general greeting. Among the Japanese, the custom is always to subordinate yourself to the person to whom you are speaking/greeting; kudasai, which we generally translate as "please", is literally an imperative verb form, meaning "send DOWN to me." The response is Agemasu or Agemasho, the latter a bit more uncertain and thus more polite, "I will try to send it UP to you." But I don't think Chinese has anywhere the linguistic honorifics that Japanese has.
     
    John Calligan likes this.
  9. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    Why don't you contact a professor specialised in the Han Dynasty? A lot of scholars/academics really appreciate writers wanting to get these historical details right and would probably be willing to help - they would surely be able to help :) Another thing, have you looked into university reading lists? Again, there will likely be a good starting point for reading in there. If you have access to a university library, I'd go pay it a visit.
     
  10. Mckk

    Mckk Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,541
    Likes Received:
    4,776
    I found this article related to a Chinese drama - seems this drama hired an ancient Chinese etiquette consultant. Might be a good drama to watch a few episodes of to get a sense of the customs, and maybe look up the consultant (Li) and see if he might have written some resources or books you could use:
    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/culture/2015-12/15/content_22715039.htm
     
  11. Necronox

    Necronox Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2015
    Messages:
    724
    Likes Received:
    802
    Location:
    Canton de Neuchatel, Switzerland
    Personally never been too interested in Chinese history (but I know someone who is), but what part of china are we talking about and at what exact time period? Because from what I know, each different state spoke different dialects/languages depending on location and as such, had different cultures, traditions and values. Therefore, it can be readily accepted that saying 'hello' regardless of the context would differ from place to place. Those differences may not be drastic between some areas, but others might be radically different.

    Also, just as an warning/friendly reminder. People often do the mistake of thinking China was a single entity for most it's period. However, it was highly fractured with a complex government. A better analogy of China would be the European Union. Some parts of china wrote and spoke radically different languages, fought in different ways, had different religions and the rest. By any means, I do not think that any 'single' answer can be given to your question. Greeting is a subject of history on it's own rights and speak quite a lot about the culture from which they originate (for instance, look at the origins of the handshake).

    Another warning, most movies today are from the perspective of a single viewpoint. Or in other words: from a singular cultural understanding. They do not properly reflect the multitude of cultures and dialects and never have I seen this properly reflected in even the most ardent 'historic' movies. Most people do not readily understand or realise just how many different dialects, languages, cultures, etc... has existed. If you live in Europe, I could almost guarantee you that there was at least 20 different languages groups spoken in your immediate vicinity at one point in history or another.

    But I applaud your wish to get it as accurate as possible.

    As an academic/scholar, I agree completely and can vouch for this statement. Most people - especially historians - are very passionate *guilty* of their particular fields of expertise/interest. They would literally *also guilty* talk for hours about it. It gets our blood racing when someone comes in asking for our help. It's like an addictive thrill you can never forget and keep coming back for more. It literally makes us happy and 'makes our day' when it happens. Even the most stupid questions are nothing short of a breath-taking experience in thought for some.
     
    John Calligan and Mckk like this.
  12. Lew

    Lew Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Messages:
    1,667
    Likes Received:
    1,527
    I got tremendous help from Dr. Nicholas Sims-Williams of the U of London on the Bactrian part of my novel, he also became an enthusiastic beta reader and wrote my first professional review prior to publication, good enough to put on the back cover of the book. How did I contact him? He won the Google dart throw contest in my search for experts in ancient Bactria. He also became a good friend, and we met him and his wife for lunch while in England last year.
     
    Mckk and John Calligan like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice