1. jollyoldchap

    jollyoldchap Banned

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    Brainstorming or Thesis Forming: Which Comes First?

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by jollyoldchap, Jul 10, 2020.

    I read in a book that, before writing a rough draft, you should have a thesis and an outline, whose items are arranged from a list formed through brainstorming. Now, it seemed to say that you shouldn't choose your thesis until after you've done some brainstorming. But I don't think you can really formulate all your points without a theme. So, I think that maybe you can first do some brainstorming, then choose a thesis based on the ideas you want to include in your piece, and then formulate more ideas based on the main theme.

    What do you think? Can you help me figure this out?
     
  2. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Sounds about right. I seem to move continually back and forth between brainstorming and fitting the ideas into whatever existing framework I have at the time, but also thinking of other possible theses that might work better.
     
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  3. GraceLikePain

    GraceLikePain Senior Member

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    I don't really understand when a person says that a writer "has" to do something a certain way. That's generally not the case, because almost anything is possible in writing. However, I'd say that your brain is like a gun -- it only works if it's loaded. So the brainstorming is the most proactive part of writing, because you only write when you have the artistic energy to do so (by inspiration or by force). Outlines and such are useful for when you aren't feeling particularly inspired at the moment, and you need some notes to remind you where you're at in your story.

    So brainstorming is for short term, notes for long term. Use them however it makes sense to you as a writer.
     
  4. Aled James Taylor

    Aled James Taylor Contributor Contributor

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    You're going to start with an idea for a book. This could be part of a plot, a setting, or a character. Then you'll need to fill that idea out into a series of events. Thinking of random things that might happen and then selecting from them is good, also consider what you have already and fill in the gaps with some logical deductions. You'll do both these activities repeatedly throughout the process of writing.
     
  5. Dogberry's Watch

    Dogberry's Watch Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2023 Contest Winner 2022

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    I don't know that I've ever followed an outline or thesis for the non-academic writing I do. That feels counterproductive to me because I usually end up changing everything on it anyway, which would mean I'd spend more time outlining than writing. I have jotted down sequencing notes, but even then I've changed those around and mixed the order up without really thinking too much about it.

    Everyone has their own approach, of course, and just like Grace said, yours should be whatever makes sense to you as a writer. So, if that means you brainstorm and outline, excellent.
     
  6. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    The word thesis does sound strange here. That's something you'd use for an essay, not fiction. I just thought you were using it as a generic term for story idea. I won't generally make anything like a formal outline, certainly not with the roman numerals and all that, more like just a loose synopsis with a lot left out. Just enough to keep the ideas loosely together. Except for when I tried doing a step outline recently. But I didn't like that approach, it seemed too confining, like I was already writing the story in outline form and then I had to come in and re-write it in more fully developed language. At most I'd use bullet points with single words or brief phrases, but don't develop your outline too fully, leave plenty of room for it to develop as you're doing the actual writing. Think of your first draft as a very rough version of the story, that is then developed through revisions.

    I'd recommend doing a bunch of short stories first, so they don't take several years of your life. The idea is to move through the entire process rapidly many times when you're learning, so the shorter the better (to a certain extent). Until you've written a complete story, with beginning, middle and end, you don't really understand the process yet. In fact usually you don't really know how to begin it until you've got an end in mind.
     
  7. HarrySTruman

    HarrySTruman New Member

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    My process looks nothing like what's described above. After coming up with an idea for a story, I spend a lot of time thinking about what directions the story might take, writing them down in a giant textual brain-dump, and highlighting the ideas that seem most interesting and plausible. I also work on defining the characters from the start -- who's in the cast, what kind of people they are, and what is troubling them. I do create outlines many times throughout the writing process, but I don't stick to them very closely. My outlines tend to consist of fairly specific summaries of the next few chapters I plan to write, with extremely vague bullets after that. I create several outlines during the course of writing a novel, and the finished product uses bits and pieces of each. Brainstorming mostly happens when I'm doing other things, but it's going on in the back of my head all the time.

    I've never even thought about the concept of a "thesis" with respect to writing fiction. Maybe that would help me, but for the most part I'm concerned with knowing the next three main plot points I want to write about, and trust that the next ones after that will come when I need them. Too much pre-planning sets my plot on rails that I have trouble deviating from, which leads to predictability.
     
  8. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I believe this would be brainstorming, mixed with outlining (trying to put the ideas into a certain order). Essentially they're the 2 parts of the process—idea-generating (aka brainstorming) and putting the ideas into some kind of rudimentary order. This is true whether the ideas concern setting, plot, or characters.
     
  9. Cephus

    Cephus Contributor Contributor

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    There is no one way to do it. You do what works best for you and produces finished work. I brainstorm up front and plot and outline before I write. Some people don't. It doesn't matter so long as you write successfully.
     
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  10. Fervidor

    Fervidor Senior Member

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    Well, usually I come up with the basic gist first: The very general concept of what I want to tell a story about. For example: "Superheroes, except it's a fantasy story." Then I start working on the characters and setting - I generally start by figuring out what sort of characters I want since my storytelling tends to put a lot of focus on characterization. This lets me move on to thinking about how I want the story to go. The theme or themes usually start becoming apparent around that point: I'll discern some basic pattern in what drives the characters and the plot. This lets me refine everything to more consistently follow the theme I ended up with, which makes the story easier to tell.

    If I write an outline, rather than just keeping it in my head, I will usually start towards the end of the above process, or some time after I've concluded it. I don't know if I ever do any "brainstorming", I think my creative process is probably too intuitive for that. Stuff just appears in my head, really.

    Note that outlines are mostly useful for writers who are predominantly, well, outliners. That is, the type who'll plan everything out in advance, and wants to be sure to control the entire narrative from start to finish. Others are discovery writers who find that making it all up as they go works better, although that means more work for you later in terms of drafts and editing. It's generally agreed upon that either approach is equally valid, it's just a matter of how your brain happens to be wired.

    I'm gonna interpret that as basically: "You should spend some time thinking about your story concept before committing to anything." At least, that's my approach. I find that ideas for stories are often not ripe when you get them, they haven't reached their full potential, so you may want to leave it all nebulous and malleable until you're sure you've arrived at something really worthwhile.

    At any rate, I assume that approach works very well for whoever wrote that book, but the process may turn out to be different for you. Writing isn't a hard science, and you can't really learn how to tell stories via instructions. Just think of it as a suggestion, and if it doesn't make sense to you then it's probably not going to be very useful.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2020
  11. ruskaya

    ruskaya Contributor Contributor

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    I think that the great thing about writing fiction is that there are no rules on how things should be done, there is no magic formula so-to-speak. Following rules set by others won't lead you necessarily where you want to go. Instead, there are ways to do things, and you pick and choose the ones you feel work best for you and try them until you define the process that makes you write, your own process.

    I recommend reading (or watch YT videos or else) about how to write and how people write and try out various tips in different combinations. Find your own process. When in doubt you can try both choices, like in this case, and see the one that works better for you. Hope this helps even if it is general advice.
     
  12. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I guess I'm a pantser, and to some extent always will be. I get my strongest inspiration from envisioning scenes.

    For example, out of nowhere (maybe triggered by a photo, or an advert) I might envision a character sailing on a boat with a few other people. I get the look and the feel of that trip from that POV character's perspective. I get to know the other people on board, usually by observing them, watching them work, relax, interact with the POV character. Then a story starts to build. Where are they going and why? Where did they come from, and why? Maybe throw a storm or two at them, or let them catch a huge fish. Or maybe spot a tropical island in the distance and sail towards it, intending to stop off for a little break. And let the story build from there.

    The more I write and continue to envision consequences, the more the plot takes shape. Once I'm pretty sure of where it's going, I then can make a few plans. But I don't outline. As long as I have a purpose in mind for each scene, just before I write it, it seems to work. My method lets me discover the story and the characters as I write it. I'm never just filling in the blanks. Instead, I'm recording what I'm seeing and feeling and thinking about and worrying about and anticipating—and not forcing issues.

    Later on, during the edits, then I can shape and pare the story down, and make it look 'meant. But I do try to let myself go during the writing process. The writing feels fresher and less contrived that way. And for me, it's never a chore. It's a lot of fun.
     
  13. Fervidor

    Fervidor Senior Member

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    Me, I'm a hardcore outliner. Inherently so, apparently. Like, even if I try to just make things up as I go, I'll still know how the story will end by the time I'm writing the second chapter, and have at least a rough plan of how to get there. My brain just does that stuff automatically.
     
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  14. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    There are basically two types of writers: architect and discovery. An architect works from an outline or other form of plan (whether they stick to it rigidly or not,) and a discovery writer lets the story go where the story goes from beginning to end. Either way, in my opinion, you have to start with an idea, a concept of what the story is about. Creating a thesis, if you really think you need a formally stated thesis, is fine. Brainstorming can come in any stage you need more ideas. You brainstorm in the beginning to develop that concept into a story. You brainstorm during the outline (if you're making one) any time you don't know what comes next, and you brainstorm during the writing process for the same reason. Any time you get stuck, you brainstorm. As to theme, I know there are writers who develop theme before getting started, but this isn't the only way to go. I think more writers let theme come organically. Themes develop as you go (again, either outlining or discovery writing.) You then strengthen those themes as you write and rewrite. If you're uncomfortable leaving themes to chance or have themes you wish to start with, brainstorm those themes in the early part of the process.

    So my answer as to which of these things to do in exactly which order is to do whatever works for you. Experiment. If this is your first attempt or your twentieth, try what the book says. Why not. If that's not working, try it a different way, and eventually you'll find your method. Even starting from scratch is never a waste of time if it's part of a learning experience. There is no right order. It's the product, not the process that's the point of these exercises.
     

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