Epic poetry

I'm starting to garner an interest in this form. I want to read the Illiad to get a good grasp on it but before I could start it hit me that it's a translation of an ancient greek writing.

I was hoping to get some thoughts on those who might know more than I do in terms of accuracy of translation. Was the epic originally written with rhyme?

 

The Iliad does not rhyme in the original- a person reciting the poem would rely on other kinds of mnemonic devices and of course the regular meter of the poem. The first English translations of Homer did however rhyme (see Chapman's Homer and, later on, Alexander Pope). Because of the way English works versus Greek it doesn't seem feasible to attempt to reproduce the Greek meter in English.

Of course everyone should be familiar with the Iliad and Odyssey but if you're writing in English and looking for models for epic poetry, it might be better to consider epics that were originally composed in modern English- The Faerie Queene, Paradise Lost, Wanderings of Oisin, etc.

As far as translations of the Iliad go my favorite is a prose translation, The War Nerd Iliad

 

I think the Lattimore translation is considered the most accurate readable translation. Some translations can very very precise, very scholarly, and very boring. Homer is worth reading though.

 

Sorry for the double post, but what do you mean by 'epic poetry'? There are, as far as I can tell, two basically distinct kinds.

One is the Homeric type, the formal, traditional style that is a grand, even (perhaps) national epic that usually deals with or represents the culture of the society that produced it. Greece has two, The Iliad and The Odyssey, and they are both under the surface about many different topics, but primarily about 'arate' meaning excellence, and being a good host. Well, I suppose both are about arate in some way, but different kinds of it. Virgil is the one who we can probably credit with the invention of a national epic as we'd understand it now. Since you mention Homer I assume it's this kind.

The other is the mini-epic, which usually wasn't quite so formal in subject while it was formal in style. Later examples of this might be Beowulf (which is an idea that might be controversial) or some of Pope's poems. Maybe even stuff like Eliot's Wasteland, although the modern world has pretty much gotten rid of fixed genres in all important senses.

People have classified, and I was taught at uni, that a classical epic poem as a grand narrative with battles and an adventure into an underworld, but that's arguably only true for two of them The Odyssey and The Aeneid. The big ones. You could argue it's true of Ovid's Metamorphosis but I wouldn't.

Mind, the epic poetry of Homer is very different in style to the epic poetry of Ovid anyway, (with Virgil it's a little more complicated, so I'm using Ovid as an example of what I'm trying to say) Ovid was writing a long poem, Homer had stock phrases that the poet (rhapsode) would put in to give himself thinking time. Like 'Hector, tamer of horses' or 'Undefeatable Achilles' or 'Sharp-edged Ajax' or 'Lord of Kings Agamemnon'. That's because Homer's poems (who studies suggests might have been two people, but that question is still very much up for debate) were originally sung in time with a little drum. The singer needed to remember thousands of lines of poetry, and sometimes needed help. Ovid's epic was written to be read, which is a very different situation. The way the poems were composed (probably composed) really matters to how they feel and even how they should be read.

I'm not going to suggest that there is nothing 'literary' about Homer for a moment, but something composed to be read, in writing, like you get with the Romans predominantly is going to be written in a more consciously literary style. It would be totally wrong to say Homer is the reverse, but he's probably a bit easier to read quickly.

Ancient Greek is, I'd say, very hard to put into English. My knowledge of Greek isn't great, but I doubt that any English version could capture everything about the original Greek so don't worry about it and go with what you like. Personally, I really like Fagles' work too, even if I think Lattimore is the best, and Fitzgerald is the most poetic translation of Homer. Those are the three you'll probably hear about the most.

 

Well the only real definition I know for epic poetry is the vague, grand adventure 'epic'. That sort of blows up characters and events for effect.

I just wanted to start at the illiad and oddessey because those are just classics. But if I cant even understand it the way it was meant to be understood then it really is just a waste of time.

The thing about it is is that I want to start writing and understanding different forms of poetry.

Ive heard also of Ovid and Beowulf was for sure on the table to read. Apparently the latter was a huge influence for Tolkien.

 

I don't think that's true. You'll be able to get the stories, and metaphors just fine in English. I mean rhythm of the Greek, maybe the emphasis of some lines isn't how the Greek phrases it.

You absolutely don't need any of that. One time I heard a performance of a translation of book 4 of The Iliad with a little drum and the guy just saying the lines in, and it was fantastic. The translations I've read of The Aeneid aren't quite how I'd translate it, but it's still worth reading them - Latin is my stronger language between it and Greek.

The thing with Homer, I think, is he feels very democratic to me. That sounds like a weird thing to say, the poems might have only been performed in royal courts, but still - there's something about a good translation of The Iliad or Especially The Odyssey that can capture some pretty fundamental truths about the human condition.

Honestly, I think if you're in any way interested, you owe it to yourself to read them. They are works of pure genius.

Yeah, Tolkien was massively influenced by Beowulf. If you are interested in that, the Chickering translation is (I think) the best.

 

I guess some of the concepts can be understood just bugs me it wouldn't be 1 for 1 what the author intended. Even if is just a different rhythm. I still might look into them.

But yeah, I'm assuming Greece then was a pure democracy. Like the mob rule kind.

 

Not all. That was Athens during the Golden Age, it's a little complicated. But yeah, Athens during the golden age was pretty democratic.

Honestly, I wouldn't be too worried about it not being a perfect 1 to 1. Greek is a fundamentally different language to English. For example, 'the boy saw the dog' and 'The dog saw the boy' mean different things, but you can have in Greek the word for Boy going first and it means that the dog saw the boy'. It's an inflectional language, like Latin. In fact, Latin is so inflectional, it doesn't even have words like 'the' or 'a' at all. Russian is the same.

Like in Latin The boy saw the dog' would be "Puer canem videt', the dog saw the boy' 'Canis puerum videt'. But you can have 'Canem videt' puer' and that means the 'boy saw the dog', even if translated literally it means 'dog saw boy'. If that makes sense?

 

Yeah but the rythem is different and there's a lot of meaning in the metre.

 

The alternative is learning the original languages, which unless you are a scholar or super into them or something might be a little much. The English translations are often perfectly good, even as poetry.