1. WaffleWhale

    WaffleWhale Active Member

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    If a character and/or story is out of copyright, does that make everything canon?

    Discussion in 'Fan Fiction' started by WaffleWhale, Aug 2, 2018.

    I'm half joking on this one, but it's also a little bit serious. I think I could see either side. On one hand, once it's public domain the whole point is that no one owns it, so it would make sense that anyone who said something about it was correct, or at least couldn't be proven the opposite.

    On the other hand, it seems like a fan made story could easily contradict the original, and if neither was considered and more canon than the other, we kinda have a problem. If you go on a case by case basis, then at some point it could be possible that the original would be declared non-canon.


    Also, remember that if you say everything is canon, that includes the improvised Sherlock Holmes story below.


    One day, Sherlock Holmes decided that he wanted to learn to become a wizard so he could better solve crimes. Watson had learned to be a wizard the previous week, so he taught Sherlock how to be one too. Sherlock then used his godlike control of time and space to create even more crime, because as we all know he doesn't actually care about the law, he just is very bored. Sherlock was then arrested.
     
  2. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Copyright is a legal term, canon is a literary/creative/cultural one. They don't really connect to each other. So, no, I don't think the state of copyright protection has any influence on what's canon and what isn't.
     
  3. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    This is the kind of question that only really makes contextual sense within a fandom environment. Ours is an original fiction forum, and while many of the members herein (myself included) are familiar with fic and its dynamics, it's not the kind of environment where people are thinking along these trains of thoughts. I've seen conversations in fandom realms where entire armies are amassed and deployed over what's canon, what's fanon, what's crack, what's this, that, the other thing, but since most everyone here is writing original fiction, the concept of caring this much concerning fandom related paradigms may well be foreign to most.

    To answer the question, just because a story falls into public domain, I don't think this in any way erases the border of the original canon. Take for example the recent film Pride, Prejudice & Zombies. The original Pride & Prejudice is certainly in the public domain at this point. Under no circumstance would I consider the inclusion of the zombie trope, as in the film, as remotely canon to the original. The original work is still clear and discernible, just as the tongue-in-cheek retooling of the story to include zombies is equally discernible as a derivation of the original.

    Now, again, the fact that you are asking the question in the given mode tells me that you likely know very, very well that in fandom climes, these kind of questions are highly incendiary and give way to deeply divisive, wholly irrational responses very quickly. Points of view on this topic are rarely founded in objective thought, and instead based on deeply personal, often emotional, investments in a particular engagement of fandom, be it strictly canon, derivative, etc.
     
  4. WaffleWhale

    WaffleWhale Active Member

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    I was actually unaware of that. I try to distance myself from any fandom because they are all insane.
     
  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    So in what context are you encountering the concept of "canon"?
     
  6. WaffleWhale

    WaffleWhale Active Member

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    That's a good question. Not actually sure.
     
  7. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    The literary canon has nothing to do with copyright. And everything is not in the literary canon nor should it be. Though some titles may be up for debate on their status in the canon, it's quite clear that's not what you are talking about. I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.
     
  8. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    Is “Wicked” or “Maleficent” canon?
     
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    In the fandom context, "canon" is what happened in the original text, as opposed to things made up by fanfic writers. So, for example, if one were writing Macbeth fanfic it would be canon that Lady Macbeth is dead before Macbeth himself is, but a fanfic might show that she faked her own death and lived on to kill again!
     
  10. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    They're canon for their own worlds - if someone's writing Wicked fanfic, Wicked is canon. But they're not canon for the Wizard of Oz fandom. Fun?
     
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  11. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    My bad.
     
  12. WaffleWhale

    WaffleWhale Active Member

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    Does "Wizard of Oz" have a fandom?

    Also,
    I get it, everyone agrees I was 100% wrong.
     
  13. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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  14. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Now I want to write a story where the murder is motivated by an arguments about what's canon :D

    That aside I would have said that a story is defined by what was originally written - anything that doesn't disagree with that is canon and anything that does isn't, regardless of what's in copyright ... however as wrey said I don't care that much one way or another
     
  15. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    It might be easier to identify what doesn't have a fandom. Which at this point in time is probably nothing.

    I once was made aware of a soda fandom where people were posting meta about different brands of soda having romantic relationships with each other. And then there's the Onceler fandom that took over my Tumblr dashboard for months. It's rule 34 of the internet - if it exists, there's porn fanfic for it.
     
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  16. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    It get's stickier within fandom realms and within franchises that do experience other lives, especially at the hands of the original creator.

    For example: The Game of Thrones scene where Tyrion Lannister buys Podrick Payne a night with three beautiful ladies of the evening in one of Peter Baelish's brothels never, ever happens in the books. Book Podrick™ is much, much younger than Show Podrick™ because not even on HBO can you send a ten-year-old Podrick to a brothel for fun time. In the show scene in questions for those not in the know, he returns to Tyrion the next day with the entire purse of money he was given to spend, the prosties having refused payment because apparently Podrick has a magic penis. Again, none of that happens in the books. Podrick is a barely present character until the Podrick & Brienne Hang Out™ arc kicks into gear, and even that arc is super different in the books compared to the show. Is it canon? GRRM is involved with both versions. There are those who argue that books and show are separate canons, and there are those who argue that once created by TPTB, it's all canon and cannot be divided.

    And then there are comic books, the manner of function of which I do not pretend to understand, where there can be several storyline universes running concurrently, all made by TPTB. There's the Logan (Wolverine) you know, and then there's Old Man Logan, and there's even an Alt-Universe Logan who sorta looks like Indiana Jones in a trench coat and happens to be gay. Where is the line between these dynamics? I don't know. Apparently there are crossovers between these different storylines, so the matter is further muddled.

    Such are the realms of fandoms.

    [​IMG]

    ETA:

    TPTB means The Powers That Be, and is fanfic lingo for the official, legal owners of a franchise. I get where the OP’s question is coming from. If a franchise falls into public domain, then TPTB technically evaporate. There is no one left to say that a given story within a franchise is an officially ratified version of the story, or not, and as stated above, there are often many versions of a story that happen even at the hands of TPTB. The concept of TPTB is a dominant topic in Fic Land, so I can see how/why the OP is using it as a litmus test for canon vs. non-canon.
     
  17. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    yeah I was once witness to a long and tiresome argument about quicksilver who died in avengers vs quicksilver whos still alive in Xmen.... my contribution "Its just a story, who cares" wasn't especially well recieved
     
  18. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think there are different layers of canon, if that makes sense? I think of it like looking at historical documents and trying to decide if they're primary or secondary sources. Like, Gibbons Decline and Fall is a secondary source for someone studying ancient Rome, but it's a primary source for someone studying great thinkers of the Enlightenment. So if you're in the Game of Thrones fandom, I think you'd be able to distinguish between something that's canon for the books, canon for the TV show, or canon based on throwaway comments made by the creators. (I've heard the term "extended canon" used).

    But I still don't think there's much of a connection to copyright protection, because I think we can distinguish between different canons for connected works. So there's a canon for, yes, the original Wizard of Oz, and a different canon for the original Wizard of Oz universe (because there were quite a few books written after the original) and then a separate canon for derivative works like Wicked. And I'd say those canons remain, regardless of copyright.

    These are Very Important Issues that must be addressed in a definitive and authoritative manner, obviously...
     
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  19. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Within the world of fic, yes, Very Important Issues™. ;) BTW, though I concede the mode of the OP's question, I still agree with you that the lines are clear when one is willing to take an objective stance.

    I'm going to diverge from the original question for a moment: A fanfic dynamic that I find fascinating is the way some fandoms will proscribe certain ships. I've seen this debate come up in several fandoms, Supernatural being the one that comes to mind. Wincest is technically taboo and can get you barred from many SPN groups, but head over to AO3 and...

    Screen Shot 2018-08-03 at 11.17.41 AM.png

    And I've read discussions to the tune of: "I was a Hermione / Snape shipper, but I started getting death threats on tumblr, so I left that fandom"

    Seriously, I've read that.

    I guess it's the near-religious level of investment that gives rise to these sorts of things that I find fascinating.
     
  20. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I used to write Kurt Hummel/Dave Karofsky (aka Kurtofsky) Glee fanfic, and holy crap, writing a fairly unpopular pairing in that toxic dumpster fire of a fandom is not an experience I would like to repeat. I never got death threats, but I was often told that I was the worst human being ever for shipping that pair and contributing my fanworks. This recent Tumblr post sums the experience up perfectly:

     
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  21. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Wowzers. But yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. That post brings something else to light which is less fascinating, and more frustrating to me. Fic History is a rather insular concept, and part of its insularity stems from the taboo nature that surrounded fic for so long. It's been explained to me that there was a time when you abso-fucking-lutely did NOT mention fic at Cons. It was understood to be a thing, but it was not something you mentioned in daylight hours, in front of people, heaven forfend Anne Rice be at this Con and then all the demons of hell really would descend upon you (in the form of cease and desist orders).

    I've only been playing in fic a few months, so I don't even have my novitiate robes yet, but I've been studying the language, the lingo, the lore. Don't mistake a Cinnamon Roll for a Marty Stu, they aren't the same. Lemon is ancient talk for smut. a\b/o is freaky as fuck, but don't you dare judge because...

    Screen Shot 2018-08-03 at 11.49.37 AM.png

    I've already learned that I am guilty of a mortal sin that I cannot give up or shake. OC x Canon. I swear to whatever god you wish to bring forth that my OC is not a Marty Stu Insert. Really, he's not. He is a Cinnamon Roll and would be long dead were it not for his Canon Shipmate, but he's not an insert. It's an ensemble cast, so he doesn't get more light than anyone else, and he's there because I only wanted to use two cannon characters, so everyone else is an OC, and I come from the land of original fiction, so I don't see OC's these way because I'm used to EVERYone being an OC....

    And I say these things in fic groups, and I swear by all the gods, old and new, lay myself prostrate upon the cold stone floor, and still... the dismissive disdain is crushing. :bigfrown:
     
  22. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I've only been active in one fandom, and I wrote mostly RPF (real person fic) which is, objectively, pretty skeevy - writing about the actors instead of the characters. And maybe that's why I never really got any pushback - anyone who's reading in an AU RPF is already someone who's willing to be pretty damn liberal about acceptable topics!
     
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  23. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Canon canon.jpg Not Canon nikon.jpg

    Sorted
     
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