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  1. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    What do you do with critique that is just plain wrong?

    Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by Kalisto, Apr 4, 2019.

    And I don't mean they're wrong about grammar or their observations about the story are wrong. I mean they're factually wrong.

    For example, I describe a sword forming rust on it just being in the rain after a few hours. I keep getting critiques that it's impossible. Rust takes days to form. Well, I know that's false. I found that out when I was making a scabbard for a sword. In order to shape the leather, I soaked it in water to make it flexible then wrapped it around the blade and tied it to let it dry. Rust formed within a few hours. Another time I was with a group trying to do a reenactment, but it rained. And rained. And rained. Without three hours there was rust on all our muskets.

    Why this is bothering me is that if this is what critiquers are saying, then you know that's what the reader is going to think. How do you deal with things that are just plain wrong? Do you change it just because everyone will point it out?
     
  2. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    If you have something factually correct that most readers will think is wrong, then I suggest finding an opportunity to explain why it's right.

    Most people only have experience with modern steel alloys, many of which don't rust quickly. Obviously, you have experience with different alloys that do.

    If your story takes place in the modern world, is there a character who, upon noticing the rust, would be able to explain why it was there? "Those old high-carbon steel alloys were hard, but they rusted easily. These days most steels has copper, nickel, chromium, vanadium, or some other metal in the alloy to prevent this." Something like that.

    If your story is set in the past, you can allude to the problem by perhaps saying no one has invented a steel that doesn't rust yet, "but I met a man once who made knife from a stone that fell from heaven. It never rusted." (I believe meteoric steel has a high nickel content).

    Of course, if you're using a 3rd person omniscient narrator, the narrator can explain it.
     
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  3. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    What do you do with critique that is just plain wrong?

    You say thank you and move on.

    I have a scene where a predator grabs the character by the leg and starts dragging him away from the camp. The critique group all said, no way, the animal would crush the leg.

    Sorry folks, the story requires the injury not break the bone.

    Credibility in critique is one of those things you have to use your judgement on. Sometimes it matters something you're writing isn't credible. It might only matter to a few experts. It might be the content really isn't credible and readers won't like it. Or it might be the critics really are wrong.

    I had another issue in that my MC grows up in a village that lacks advanced technology though they have access to knowledge. The critique group complained, but they hadn't read the whole story, just a little piece of it where you cannot explain the whole book in every chapter. Sometimes critics need to take a step back and ask if they are injecting too many things not actually in the chapter they are reading, bringing in unrelated biases to the work.

    Those first three sentences and first 200 words threads are especially problematic when critics want to know everything about everything and believe said deficiencies mean the work isn't adequate. I tried too hard to indicate my MC was female in the first three sentences then finally realized it did not need to be there and forcing it in was damaging to the work.


    Different kinds of metals rust at different rates. One benefit of steel was the fact it doesn't easily rust.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
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  4. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    This really depends on if the people giving critique represent the average reader. It also depends on if the matter is something readers are going to care much about, whether it's a major or minor part of the story.

    You don't have to explain everything, again, it depends on whether that is something that is going to pull the reader out of the story or not. Some things people just read past, other things stand out more.
     
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  5. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    All true. But if you can prevent the issue from arising with a few sentences that are in keeping with the characters and their world, why not?

    You can even address the issue in advance, by showing someone doing maintenance on something steel to prevent or remove rust. In the middle ages, for example, people removed rust from chain mail by rolling it around in a barrel full of sand. (I've done it with a cement mixer.) See https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/5955/how-was-armour-rusting-in-the-rain-handled-throughout-history

    And of course, if the steel rusting doesn't matter to the story, you can always make no mention of it.
     
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  6. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    @Kallisto said the critics were wrong. Why should we think most readers would also be wrong?

    Not saying your ideas are wrong, we are just using different underlying premises. :)
     
  7. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    I've brought up this example before, but this reminds me of how the historical consultants for the movie Gladiator wanted the gladiators to carry product endorsements out into the Colosseum because that would be historically accurate, but the film's creators decided not to because it would break suspension of disbelief.

    Good storytelling is usually more important than realism. Fiction includes a lot of small inaccuracies that make the stories work better. Since this is the written word, you have greater opportunity to educate the reader by having a character make note of the fact and why it is counter-intuitive. But also don't be too afraid to just cut that out if it hurts the story.
     
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  8. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    I'm not saying that most will be. But even if it is just a few readers, why not subtly educate those readers, if it doesn't take too much effort and doesn't harm the story?

    Plus, there's the Internet to consider. People love to post about supposed mistakes authors make. Even if just a few readers think "that sword shouldn't be rusty in only a few hours," once they start spreading that misinformation on social media, the book (and its author) may start looking bad as a result. So the author might want to preempt that if they can.
     
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  9. The Dapper Hooligan

    The Dapper Hooligan (V) ( ;,,;) (v) Contributor

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    You are right,rust can for really dang quick on bare steel, but I am a little concerned about how you're maintaining your weapons. With swords, you once you're done sharpening and doing other maintenance, they should really be given a quick rub with an oiled rag before it's sheathed which should keep rust away for a couple of days at the very least. If you know you're going into some rough weather or are going to be putting it in storage, you could even cook up some sword wax which is a little thicker, but will keep it protected longer. And firearms have generally had bluing applied, as well as being oiled over that to prevent rust, which when done regularly should hold off rust for more than a couple of hours.

    But yeah, if you think someones critique is wrong, say thank you and move on. If several people tell you the same thing, then maybe you should see where this misunderstanding is coming from so you know whether it's something you should address or not.
     
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  10. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    Perhaps this is a sword that was used on the battlefield before being left in the rain. Whatever protective coating it had might have been lost to use, and the owner may not have been alive to re-apply it.
     
  11. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    You can often acknowledge reader misconceptions more or less directly, depending on the voice of your narration. Something like:

    A faint pattern of rust was already showing on the blade, and Conan cursed himself for not oiling the metal better.
    or
    The damn thing was already showing some rust. I'd think there was some curse at work, but I knew better. Steel, for all its strength, is vulnerable.
    or whatever.

    Or, alternatively, I'd agree with the "truthiness" element of @Matt E 's post. We're not writing history that needs to be accurate, we're writing fiction than needs to create the right impression. And the impression created by rust is likely to be that the metal has been neglected for a significant period of time. Whether that's technically accurate or not isn't the issue.

    You're trying to manipulate people's brains into caring about characters who never existed living through situations that never happened. That's a pretty big job. I wouldn't set yourself more challenges than necessary - use all the tools you can to create the effect you want, even if one of those tools involves playing on readers' preconceptions.
     
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  12. noobieneiux

    noobieneiux Banned

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    Depends on the context. I usually ignore critiques. If they are factually wrong then are they hurting you with their erroneous statements? Then I would consider whether to reply along with how/when.

    If you mean changing something you wrote then it depends where you are in the publishing process.
    I would not make changes per se , but if it was yet to be published then I would adjust the mss to show why I was correct. That might be done in the text or worst case a << * >> and a footnote.


    As to rust formation speed, I do not know. I am a little skeptical about the speed of forming, but I realise that that does depend a lot on the metal and other circumstances, so you may well be right. I would not have questioned that if you had it in your story. I do know one building was designed to rust and it took a couple of years for that to happen.
     
  13. DarkPen14

    DarkPen14 Florida Man in Training Contributor

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    Oftentimes when I have people critique my work, I don't show them the whole thing, just the piece I need critique for. Does this make sense? THe answer I usually get is "No, because..." an answer that doesn't make sense if you paid attention in your classes throughout school.
    If they are factually wrong, but refuse to be corrected, thank them for their critique and move on. If they are just wrong in general "That's not MY god!" when the two deities share name only, for example, then I often find that explaining the context of the piece of the thing they're reading takes too much time, and I myself am confused as to what is actually going on by the end of it. Obstinate people make horrible critics.
     
  14. noobieneiux

    noobieneiux Banned

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    Those who know the real truth will be worse than obstinate. And the truth they tell you will be very annoying.
     
  15. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    A critique is not right or wrong. It's opinion, even if they are "explaining" what they believe is factual. And every opinion tells you something potentially useful. If, as in this case, they assert a common myth as fact, you can anticipate that some readers may believe likewise, so you might consider include something that answers that factoid. But first, be sure of your facts.

    And be sure to thank your critiquer, even if you think he or she is a raging cretin. Every critique can be useful, depending on what you choose to do with it.
     
  16. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    That's my opinion on this issue as well. If you can close the gap between what you know to be true and what the reader may commonly believe, then why not do it?

    That's what betas are for, actually. They let you know what readers think of your story. The more opinions you get, the better. If you ignore what they tell you, then what's the point of having them in the first place?

    I have tweaked umpteen references in my historically-set story, simply because different readers got the wrong impression about aspects of the setting. It's usually easy to do.

    In any event, you thank them for their observations and promise to think about what they said. And then do think about what they said! :)
     
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  17. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    There's a semi-historical fiction novel set in Roman Britain in which the sword Excalibur was forged from that very material. The Skystone, by Jack Whyte. Apparently it was book one of a series, but I haven't gotten to the others yet.
     
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  18. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    It turns out this is way older tech than I thought, per Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteoric_iron

    Many examples of iron working from the Bronze Age have been confirmed to be meteoritic in origin.
    • Dated to around 2500 BC, an iron dagger from Alaca Höyük in Turkey was confirmed to be meteoritic in origin through geochemical analysis.
    • Dated to around 1400 BC, an iron axe from Ugarit in Syria was found to be meteoritic in origin.
    • Dated to around 1400 BC, several iron axes from the Shang Dynasty in China were also confirmed to be meteoritic in origin.
    • Dated to around 1350 BC, an iron dagger, bracelet and headrest from the tomb of Tutankhamun were confirmed to be meteoritic in origin. The Tutankhamun dagger consists of similar proportions of metals (iron, nickel and cobalt) to a meteorite discovered in the area, deposited by an ancient meteor shower.
     
  19. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    Truth is stranger than fiction.

    I ran into the OP’s issue with my current web serial when a character uses a faucet to wash her face. It threw some people off.

    In my immaturity, I think I just left it.
     
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  20. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    I think this experience has changed entirely how I do critiques now. Now I make a point to have a dialogue with the author about their story, their experiences, and what they want out of their story instead of jumping to a conclusion that something will or won't work. Especially if all I'm reading just one chapter out of a whole.
     
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  21. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think the risk of this approach is that readers in a bookstore won't be having a dialogue with the author. They'll just be reading the words on the page.

    So, sure, if you're only reading one chapter, it's important to have some context. And, I'd argue, it's best to never make firm proclamations about what will or won't work universally, but I think it's often really valuable for a writer to hear what works or doesn't work for a given beta, without the beta having extra information that other readers won't have.
     
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  22. Ma'am

    Ma'am Banned

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    As with any critique, you thank the critiquer, then take what you need and leave the rest. People say all kinds of incorrect or unhelpful things. But they've still been kind enough to attempt to help you with your work. Returning that kindness with an unrequested evaluation of their attempt often comes across as rudeness.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
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  23. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yes. Exactly this.
     
  24. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    Of course they won't, but you also read a little differently when you're giving feedback then you would casually. When you're reading for feedback, you're literally looking for mistakes. You're more sensitive to how characters act. When you read casually, you're just sort of rolling with it.
     
  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think this works both ways, though. If you read more closely when you're beta reading, you're more likely to catch all the little clues the author may have dropped. So if you still don't think a character makes sense, what are the chances a more casual reader will understand?

    I'm also not sure I read more closely when I'm beta reading. Now, I'm not a great beta (if I enjoy the story I get lost in it and don't notice little errors, and if I don't enjoy the story I quit reading)... but I'd argue that my kind of beta-ing is actually pretty valuable because it does more closely simulate how a casual reader would approach the text.
     
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