Hey, I could do with a little advice. Or just get this off my chest, anyway. Had my second novel betaread by a couple of folks and it turns out the first third needs a rewrite. It's too slow. I can see why people might feel it is, but I have no clue on how to go about fixing that. This is where my inexperience gets in the way. When I write it's like Tetris-style packing a suitcase. Everything fits perfectly, you can just squeeze it shut, and when you click the latch you realize you forgot to pack a coat. When i write chapter one, I don't know what's gonna happen in chapter two yet. A character might say something interesting, or it could even be just a single word that sparks my brain to go: "Let's go this way!" So that means every chapter has a little thread tying it to another chapter, and every thread has a larger chunk justifying it to prevent deus ex machinas. And that means I can't just cut out a chunk of fat without hitting vital organs. I don't feel I can do it. And overall the beta comments were positive enough to make me consider just dealing with the easy fixes and publishing as-is. Why believe professional beta-readers, right? I've thought about just putting the project aside for a bit and clear my mind, as that seems to be recurring advice from better writers, but these days that means I'll just be looking at my videogame while a disembodied voice shouts at me about wasting time. Hell, I'm posting here so I can tell myself I'm still doing writing-stuff without having to actually do writing stuff. Any tips, advice, or kicks in the ass are welcome.
I think the hardest part about getting feedback is figuring out how to put it into context. I think it is important to recognize the readers providing critiques don’t necessarily know what the author’s intention is. So while their critiques may alert to critical deficiencies, they may not have the right antidote. I have three more specific thoughts. Is it too slow, or is it lacking in suspense and tension? I’m working through this now in my novel, trying to effectively increase the suspense. There is more room for changes than you are allowing, you have to allow room for editing or you are fucked. Don’t do it. You haven’t brainstormed enough to be sure you are at this stage yet.
Suspense and tension isn't my thing in the first place. It's mostly meant to be amusing, even though decidedly unamusing things might happen. The offending part is basically just building work. Get reaquinted with the characters (it's sort of a sequel), introduce the new ones, set where they currently are in the story-- Eh, you're a writer, you know how it goes. ;o) But I'm a naturally slow person anyway. As far as writing goes, not Tolkien-slow, but I do want the foundation to be stable. Yeah, I think I'll need to find a new way of writing. This whole see-where-it-goes thing is fine for the first five drafts, but it's not bulletproof. I think there might even be room for editing -- one can always edit, right? -- but I'm so fused, for lack of a better word, with my story that I can't see how. Is this already the point where I should hire an outside editor?
I say hack away at the internal organs. Recklessly. You can always go back to your copy of the prior draft. Maybe make a list of plot holes you dig during edits. For myself, I ended up finding even better solutions during rewrites.
Thanks. I was actually so far up my own ass about this that I never even thought about that. (I feel that reads a little as sarcasm, but it isn't.)
Yeah, I do this. And it always ends horribly. I often start a chapter/short story with an idea that might be a punchline or a phrase. What I've found is that this is far from helpful, and that it indicates that I don't have a more solid idea for the story/chapter. Whenever this happens nowadays, I ignore myself and try to think of something better before I start. We might have the same symptoms but different root causes, so I would not say that this is definitely your problem too. Or maybe this kind of thing isn't a problem for you at all, but a strength. That's the trouble with writing, a writing process can differ so much per person, its difficult to tell whether things like this are actually a problem. Here's my advice: don't publish it as is. If you can understand what your beta-readers mean, and a lot of your beta-readers do indeed share similar feedback, then just don't. If I've learned anything from putting my writing out there, it's that everytime I have even a slight sneaking suspicion, my readers grip onto it when I ask for feedback surprisingly thoroughly. And I always go, now why the **** didn't I listen to myself? During editing I have also discovered that dirty fixes are the devil, and that they can actually make the problem worse than it is in the bigger picture. Despite this, sometimes I turn lazy and edit a sentence or a paragraph to try and fix its sloppy flow, and it looks like it works better, but once I remember this fact, I rework the entire manuscript (or at least a large section) and that's when I can really say, "Now that's MUCH better." Digital editing is convenient but also a double-edged sword. It's easy to hack away at a few sentences and call it a fix, you're more inclined to do it. Dirty fixes are just that: dirty fixes. If something is not done properly, it will be of lesser quality, period. Now I'm not saying that all instances of digital editing are bad. It's not, its just that this inclination that makes people do bad editing makes it more common. If I believed that this was the case, I would be strictly writing and editing on my typewriter. I don't. On the taking a break thing: I'd say do it. Letting manuscripts age is very real. Once you put it away for a month, or even better several of them, you will notice so many things that you otherwise wouldn't have initially, no matter how many nights you spend re-reading it over and over and over and over. So, yes, this is a case when not reading is better than reading. Maybe consider the break as a necessary part of editing, this way you won't feel guilt.
Expanding on your concept of the suitcase analogy. If you look at each item in the suitcase it serves a purpose and a time for use. The the dress shirt goes with the slacks, the polo with the shorts. Each item in your story should have a purpose and a time frame that fits with your adventure. You don't bring summer wear to the ski resort, you don't dress the same way for breakfast as you do for dinner. You need to organize your suitcase. What items are nessecary? How does their use fit in with your plans. If you just throw a bunch of clothes in the suitcase without a rhyme or reason it would only make sense that you will have a jumble you can not use. You need an itinerary you need of list of things that you have, that can make sure you have all the right stuff during the course of your trip. Each item is tied to another, each will serve a purpose and a time. Tension and anxiety can and will arrive if something un-explained or un-planned happen. This is the way to pick up the pace of your story when this happens. I have a business meeting and all I have to wear are my pajamas. Small details might add to what you already have without changing a ton of stuff. I am only guessing, but I think writers call this an outline.
I'm a long way from publishing, though I might have implied otherwise. Whether I manage to fix it according to betareader comments or not, it's still going to an editor, proofreader, the whole deal. Some betareaders made inline comments, and I'm now tackling those first. Maybe that'll help me see where the pacing can be increased. Which reminds me, one comment stated "I don't know who Rembrandt is". This is unfathomable to me, but maybe I'm just too Dutch. Off the top of your head, does the name Rembrandt mean anything to you? Here's where my (perhaps autistic) way works in my favor. I don't do dirty fixes. Just can't. I don't care if it's a single word or a paragraph, it's only done when it's clean. That's kinda the problem with the whole suitcase of words. Barring bits where I take a little detour for a joke, I believe everything's already connected. There's the possibility I'm mistaken, but so far everything that's not a crutch for a joke is in there because it needs to be, and I could argue that the joke-detours need to be in there as well, because else you're better off just reading a book by someone who knows what they're doing.
Maybe it's a generational thing. I don't know much about visual art but would be very familiar with Rembrandt, at least as the name of one of the masters. He didn't make it as a teenage ninja turtle, though.
Yeah, he's probably the greatest Dutch master. Painted The Night Watch. As far as famous Dutch painters go, you're bound to end up at either him or Van Gogh. I guess it's generational then, yeah. Hm. I suddenly got very old, didn't I? I would change it to one of the Turtle-artists, but I actually have a Ninja Turtles reference somewhere already. Go figure. ;o)
I get what you're saying with this. You build an intricate chapter and then it's tough to deeply edit without the whole structure crumbling. Which reminds me of Amadeus: "Displace one note, and there would be diminishment. Displace one phrase, and the structure would fall." Is it possible to list all of the essential elements of each scene/chapter? In retrospect you can find them. It's almost like plotting in reverse (which is "outlining," I suppose). Then you can sort of mad-libs them into a new section that's shorter. And sometimes when writing is too slow it doesn't mean there's too much of it but rather that there needs to be more tension. So maybe using that same list, you tighten down the scene with the essential elements still there and then add a subplot that leads into the turning point. So you're upping the stakes across your inciting incident. (I just realized how redundant "inciting incident" is as a phrase. Wow, that's dumb.) It's still rather depressing because you've mentally moved on and are looking for shallow updates at the paragraph level or even just line edits, but they're telling you to make scene-level revisions. edit: I know of Rembrandt. I picture portraits on black. I think many Americans are aware of him though they probably don't know what he painted. He's just a name to them. A little different from Van Gogh, where they have specific images.
First thing I picture are the wildly expressive ink drawings done with a reed pen, and the equally expressive etchings. Or were they engravings?
It's not so much about just cutting entire chapters out, and more about asking yourself: Is this the most effective way of conveying what you need conveying? Also, can this scene or that scene pull more weight? What do I mean by this? So, for example, if I wanted to say, illustrate how my MC school child has no friends and he is angry about this, I have a few options. He could walk to school alone while all around him others are saying hi to each other and walking in pairs. I could have him sit alone in class. I could have him be bullied. Yes, all of these would illustrate how he has no friends. But what if I have a scene where HE bullies others, and in his verbal abuse against the victim reflect his own loneliness? Ah, that's more emotional impact, makes my MC more active, and illustrates not only that 1. he has no friends, 2. he's angry, but 3. there's a third! what sort of person he is, his character, his coping mechanism. Is this not a more effective scene, therefore? Now, what if in my story, my theme is about say, loyalty? How do I extrapolate that theme in this particular scene? Well, perhaps I could add just a paragraph or two previously showing Child A be super kind to my lonely MC, and now, guess who the victim is? Yes, my MC is bullying Child A for all to see. This scene now pulls more weight - not only to introduce my MC, not only to introduce his inner need, but it expresses the theme of my book. It illustrates his flaw. Think: how can I make one single scene do as much as possible? Think: Is this event the absolute best way to show what I need to show, or is there a better way? Can I merge two scenes and actually, with some small changes, show all the things in both scenes, only now I've condensed it from 5k words to 2k? This directly affects pacing, of course. And always keep an eye on your MC's arc - every single scene should go towards expressing it. The lengthy scenes worth having are exactly the ones that develop his arc. Anything that does not, you better ask yourself why not, and think about how it can be incorporated or whether you need it at all. So you speak of the sudden extra coat you need in your suitcase, perhaps there's a more lightweight coat that's better suited. Or perhaps you don't actually need both pairs of shoes in your suitcase, and can therefore get rid of one and fit in the coat. Do you really need office shoes and sneakers, or can some smart converse actually suit both occasions? If your beta readers - multiple - all agree the beginning is slow, then do not ignore that. Because guess what, readers don't love your book. Not yet. You gotta make them fall in love with it first. This means if they're bored at the beginning, they will stop reading. It doesn't matter that things get super awesome at chapter 10 if they never get there. It doesn't matter that all their questions are answered in chapter 5 if they've fallen asleep at chapter 3. You cannot ignore this. To be a writer is to edit and rewrite. It's just part of the journey. Good luck! ETA: Saw your other comments. Of course I know who Rembrandt is. But asking on a random writing forum might not reflect how famous Rembrandt is. It depends on the age of the person you're asking - too young and they may not have heard of him. Also, English speakers are rather notorious for not knowing anything outside their own countries As for you tackling inline comments first - I suppose these are line edits where commenters mentioned stuff on word choices? No, that's not how you affect pacing on the grand scheme of things. Clean prose is necessary, but it will not help your bigger issue of pacing. Don't worry about those right now - what good is a perfect paragraph if you find the whole event has to be rewritten or deleted? I mean, I always like to make sure my rough drafts are as clean as possible on a line level - my rough drafts tend to be ready for review immediately - but at this stage, if you've not gone through the process of making it clean, I wouldn't bother with that now. You got bigger fish to fry.
My two cents worth: decide what information in the offending chapters is essential to the rest of the book. List that information in order. Rather than trying to snip bits and pieces from the existing chapters, rewrite the chapters from scratch incorporating that information. On this rewrite, you have the advantage of knowing where the story is going so it's easier to cut out the mental meanderings one is prone to when chapter one knoweth not what chapter two is doing. Yeah, it's a lot of work, but this kind of rewrite can be great fun as well.
It's a whole story at this point, but yeah. I'll take the comparison to Amadeus, though. ;o) I've set up a sort of duct tape and fairydust version of Scrivener in Drive. Every chapter gets an outline in Sheets which I can move around. Starts out with every event getting such an outline, but by the time I start bothering betareaders with it everything's been screwed tightly into chapters. Not so much, actually. I'm an amateur, I expect there'll be work to do when I get the reports back. My real problem is, I think, that every part is too dear to me to cut. Like I've created a baby with three arms. One of them's gotta go, but it's my baby, dammit! Anyway, I'm starting to heavily lean towards getting an actual editor to help me with that surgery. I don't think I'll be able to make it better on my own. Good enough for me. I'm inclined to keep him in there. There are a couple of other references in the story that are just in there so one or two people can feel good about catching them. Either someone gets it, or they get it from context, or they get it from google. I, err... Look, I live about 45 minutes (not including 30 minutes of looking for parking) from the actual real Night Watch, but my ex was the one with the art knowledge. All I know is the guy was pretty good with a brush. Part of the reason I'm entertaining the thought of ignoring it is because it's fifty-fifty. It's just rather inconvenient that the it's-too-slow people are probably right. I see your point, but I'd beg to differ. I think asking about a famous person in a place where they're not a common subject helps determining how broadly known they really are. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go to a handyman forum to ask if they've ever heard of L.R. Bakker. I agree, but they're not just line edits. They're in there as well, but I always ask those betareaders who do inline comments to pose questions. Not clear on why a guy goes left instead of right? Let me know. If it's not supposed to remain unexplained, I've not done my job properly. So I'm sort of tackling little versions of the big problem that caused this thread. Nevertheless, I'll admit that it hasn't helped very much so far.
50% think its too slow. 50% don't, is that right? Is the 50% who think its too slow not into reading (your genre)? Are the 50% who don't think its too slow into reading (your genre)? Is one group nicer than the other and trying to spare your feelings? If the two camps are equal quality beta readers, then maybe you've found your audience. If you're not too confident about the feedback of the positive 50% (ie, its not that they are avid readers and LOVE your work) it's probably safer to heed the feedback of the negative group. To me, "its too slow" ultimately means they aren't enjoying it. That might not sound very helpful, but on the bright side, it means you have many options on how to make it more enjoyable, not just "making it faster."
This may help in your editing. The Five Commandments Explained These 5 elements should appear in each scene and Act: 1. Inciting Incident: Something happens, either caused by a character or a coincidence, that changes the protagonist’s day/moment. Example: A boy joins the army. 2. Turning Point: Something else happens, either through character action or a revelation of some type, which changes the protagonist’s view of their current situation and forces the protagonist to make a decision on how to move forward. Example: The boy who joins the army finds out his dad has cancer. 3. Crisis Question (Difficult Choice): This is a best bad choice or best good choice that the protagonist needs to make. It is crucial that the protagonist makes the decision, not a secondary character or Act of God. When a character makes decisions, the reader sees what kind of person they are and understands them better. This causes your reader to empathize with them. Example: The boy needs to decide to either go ahead and join the army or resign for hardship, and stay to take care of his father and family. This decision will affect the plot and future decisions he makes. 4. Stakes: This is what the character risks with each option. To ensure that the crisis question is between a ‘best bad’ or ‘best good’ choice, the stakes should be comparable in their gravity. Example: Joining the army will fulfill his lifelong desire to get away from his small town, travel, and see the world, but his family will be upset that he abandoned them in a time of grave need. Staying means being able to help his family through his father’s illness and spend time with him during what may be the end of his life, but he will also have to give up, or at least postpone, his dreams. 5. Climax (Decision): This is the actual decision made by the character, but it can be changed by outside forces. Example: The boy decides to stay home to take care of his father, but when he tries to resign, the Army tells him that he can’t because he qualified for a high demand job. The reader knows what kind of son the character is, even though he wasn’t allowed to stay and take care of his father, his intent was pure. 6. Resolution: These are the results of the specific decision made by the character. Example: Since the boy decided to stay, but the army didn’t let him, the father/family would be more understanding and receptive, and mad instead at the system. Had he decided to join anyway, the father/family would be more apt to be mad at the boy and hold that against him when he came home on vacation. Hope this helps.
This is why I prefer to go with paid betareaders: I pay them to talk shit. Apart from one. She does it for free and actually gets the alpha read. I can definitely trust her to tear into me if needed. Overall the response is positive, and it usually boils down to the "if I have one criticism..." line. There's always more than one criticism, don't get me wrong, but I can tackle almost every one of those without a big hassle. Part of the difficulty is that even though it's "slow", the betareaders still find it an enjoyable read. Character interactions are basically the foundation. It's just that nothing much really happens. It doesn't help that the book is a semi-sequel. Same people, same universe, different story. It should be readable without knowledge of book 1, but that means a lot more stuff needs to be explained. Preferably organically. And then there's a bunch of setting up I need to do as well. Well, shit. One of my characters is God. Yes, it does help, actually. I'm still not confident I'm going to be able to remedy the issue on my own, but a few handholds help.
I understand your position on the beta readers. I use a team of professional editors, for feedback on problems. I use those five commandments on my first review of the work.
