Is everyone writing fantasy?

Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by hvb, Jan 19, 2014.

  1. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    @EdFromNY ah...yes perhaps focusing on fantasy posts on the forums you are correct. I haven't followed the posts on the subject here that closely. I don't agree that the otherworldly aspect necessarily creates any more distance than would be created in, say, a historical novel set in the 1800s. The distance or lack thereof seems to me to be the result of an authors skill with character, conflict, and overall writing, not the genre.

    As for Tolkien, there are some sixty years between the publication of Lord of the Rings and now, and while there has been a lot of fantasy derivative of Tolkien, there has also been a lot that is not. When people heard "fantasy" they think of Tolkien and assume he must be representative of the genre as a whole (which is a testament to his popularity I suppose), but he isn't.

    I do find that a lot of aspiring fantasy authors adopt many of the traditional tropes that are derivative of Tolkien and related works, which might explain why posts in a forum such as this seem skewed in that direction.
     
  2. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    By fantasy, Ed is talking about LoTR, George rr Martin, Dragonlance, Wheel of Time, Sword of Shannarah, and hundreds of other novels just like them.


    Little Prince, Mievelle, that's not what comes to mind for most people when they hear fantasy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
  3. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    But that's the point of mentioning these writers. There's the perception of the genre and then the much bigger reality.
     
  4. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    And I'm not sure the earlier statement is true, anyway. At least not for people familiar with the genre. Also, Martin doesn't fit in with the other authors mentioned, in my view.
     
  5. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    Would swords and sorcery be more politically correct?
     
  6. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    Which statement? If it was mine, then yes, I should have been more clear in meaning those not familiar with the genre. But I think this is something that can be said of many if not most genres, in that for those not enculturated (so to speak) to the genre, there is outsider's perception and an insider's knowledge.
     
  7. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    That's a subgenre of fantasy, and none of the authors you mentioned fall into it :) Swords and Sorcery is more along the lines of Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, Michael Moorcock, C.L. Moore, and more recently perhaps the likes of Paul Kemp.
     
  8. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    No, I meant the statement by @123456789 that 'most' people think of those authors when they think of fantasy.
     
  9. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    Pretty sure Dragonlance hs swords AND sorcery in it :eek:
     
  10. Lewdog

    Lewdog Come ova here and give me kisses! Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2012
    Messages:
    7,676
    Likes Received:
    3,056
    Location:
    Williamsburg, KY
    Nope they are just short lances.
     
    123456789 likes this.
  11. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    Perhaps not 'politically correct' so to speak, but I think it's more descriptive of what is often the perception of the genre as a whole for those not more familiar with the wider spread of tropes that fall within the genre. ;)
     
  12. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    Take a look at what would be fantasy writers here want to write. It says a lot about what's being perceived as fantasy. That's why were in this mess in the first place!
     
  13. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    Yes, but it isn't generally considered within the subgenre of sword and sorcery. Dragonlance is more high fantasy.
     
  14. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    It might be time for another poll....
     
  15. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    True. But a lot of beginning fantasy writers, particularly young ones, frankly aren't very well read in the genre. Not near as well as they need to be if they want to be much good :)
     
    Wreybies and 123456789 like this.
  16. Wreybies

    Wreybies Thrice Retired Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    23,826
    Likes Received:
    20,815
    Location:
    El Tembloroso Caribe
    Yup, and again, probably something where the word fantasy in your sentence can be replaced with any genre and be true. I doubt many young readers would rank works by Gabriel Garcia Marquez as fantasy, though some of it certainly is, albeit from a different cultural perspective.
     
  17. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    5,101
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    Perhaps they also need to be better read beyond the genre. :eek:
     
    minstrel and peachalulu like this.
  18. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    Well said Ed!
     
  19. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    Sure. Everyone should do so, in my view.

    I'm not surprised at broad, and rather inaccurate, characterizations of fantasy, however. You see that quite a bit, particularly in writing forums. As someone who reads in every genre, and reads a lot, and also reads classics and what is considered 'literary fiction,' I encounter these kinds of biases from all sides. People who don't know much about fantasy, for example, have a limited view of what is in the genre or what can be done with it. On the other hand, a lot of people I know who write fantasy criticize reading of classics or literary fiction as pretentious or somehow insincere. I get criticized by fantasy fans for reading science fiction, by both for reading horror, and so on.

    It's really mind-boggling in a way. Any great story that has ever been told could also be told in the context of a fantasy novel. And the converse of that is plenty of great novels are in no way related to the fantasy genre. On writing forums I sometimes feel like worlds are colliding and the inhabitants of either one aren't quite sure what to make of it.
     
  20. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    I'm really not sure about that.
     
  21. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    Seems self-evident to me. Can you think of any reason why not?
     
  22. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,620
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Location:
    occasionally Oz , mainly Canada
    I don't know about every book but it's actually a cool idea Steerpike, it would make a fantastic contest - turn your favorite novel into a fantasy version.
     
  23. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,102
    Likes Received:
    4,605
    It's hard for any fantasy setting to match the depth of a real word setting, which naturally has thousands of years of history and culture embedded in it. A book switching from real world to made up land could very well lose some of its texture.

    The second issue is relevance. What if To Kill a Mockingbird took place in Middle earth?
     
  24. EdFromNY

    EdFromNY Hope to improve with age Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2010
    Messages:
    5,101
    Likes Received:
    3,203
    Location:
    Queens, NY
    I think the more interesting question is what, if anything, would be qualitatively added to a story by giving it a fantasy-type setting. Understand, I'm not arguing your point. I'm trying to understand what it is about the fantasy genre that young readers (and writers) apparently find so compelling.

    Take Romeo and Juliet and put it in a modern setting and you have West Side Story. Why do that? Because the Shakespeare-era notion of families feuding to the death does not resonate in the way it did in his time. But in the mid-1960s, the notion of ethnic/racial feuds had tangible meaning. Romeo and Juliet for me is a delight - no one ever used the English language quite the same way. But West Side Story to me is real, tangible, because I lived through "white flight". It put Shakespeare's idea into a more "real world" setting. I'm trying (but failing) to see how putting such a notion into a less real world setting improves our understanding of and appreciation for the underlying human problem.

    Clarification: I'm not arguing. Just asking.
     
  25. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    13,984
    Likes Received:
    8,557
    Location:
    California, US
    I'm not necessarily saying you would gain in any given case (except, perhaps, to get some who otherwise wouldn't read it to do so). I'm just pointing out that it could be done. There's no inherent limitation of the genre that precludes it, as some seem to think.

    I find the same things compelling in fantasy that I find compelling in all of the non-fantasy I read - a well-told story, good characters, interesting situations, and so on.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice