Is said dead or is everything else?

I agree with your point (I mentioned the same thing a bit earlier, actually), but I would say in this case that using 'letting' - present tense - implies he's speaking as he lets out the sigh, which seems like the same thing as 'he sighed' as a tag.

"Hello," he sighed = "Hello," he said, letting out a sigh - while "Hello." He sighed = "Hello," he said, and let out a sigh. Though at this point I'm nitpicking.

 

This might just be my personal taste, but I always find that using "sighed" as a dialogue tag instead of having it be an action taking place after a person has spoken can help with characterization. If a character sighs out their words, I'll automatically assume that the character has a penchant for being dramatic.

I also feel as though the placement of a tag or beat can help describe how someone says something.
1. She laughed. "You're too funny."
2. "You're too funny," she laughed. (or she said, laughing).
3. "You're too funny." She laughed.
3 reads as derisive to me, 2 and 1 seem genuine, but because she waited until she was done laughing in 1, 1 makes it sound like she found whatever it was much funnier than she did in 2.
I don't know if anyone else ever sees that, but that's how I feel.

 

I suppose that could happen with sigh, although I'm a bit dubious—and yes, I tried. But try smiling a word, or frowning a word. (And I've seen those written in stories.) My choice would be: "Hello," he said, with a sigh.

The point I was trying to make is that a writer should make sure their choice of tag describes how words are actually said. You can say something 'with' ...a sigh, a frown or a smile ...which is how I would choose to write an action that accompanies the words and doesn't come before or after they're said. But I still maintain you can't frown or smile the words themselves. You can shout or whisper them, but you can't frown or smile them.

 

I am going to stand firmly behind @jannert on this matter of tags @Samuel Lighton. There is much wisdom that jannert has that we should learn from.

 

I prefer "said," but sometimes I like other dialogue tags if used sparingly. I suppose I also have a fetish for adding adverbs to a tag. Stephen King does this often. Philip K. Dick took this to an absurd degree, especially with action tags. (I can recall reading a novel of his in which "hurried hurriedly" and "stepped squishily" were used.)

(PKD is often criticized as a "bad" writer at the sentence level, but I believe it was stylistic choice. In"A Scanner Darkly," one of the characters reads from a police document and the language of the document is totally unlike his normal style. He clearly could write well but chose not to.)

 

Actually...and I only know this because of a crappy job in PR... Smiling does change how your words sound. I don't mean like having a concrete smile that's making you grit your teeth - I mean just happily, slightly smiling. One of the points in using a phone there was to smile while you're talking because it affects the sound of your words, and customers could distinguish and recognise that sound as you 'being happy'.

Basically, any action that changes how your mouth or lips are positioned or shaped changes the sound of your spoken word. And to me, that would be the replacement for said. To me, Said has it's place in normal speech, but for all the rest it should be replaced with whatever they're doing that changes the sound appropriately.

P.S. I don't mean something like banging pots and pans together I suppose for me, it's about writing what could alter either the reader's perception, or the character's perceptions of each other. It just feels...fuller? This way? More complete/accurate?


To be honest, I think most people have facial expressions paired with tones of voice for when they speak. Their own expectancy of what their voice should sound like with a certain expression. That influences how someone's voice sounds. I mean, who talks in monotone here?

 

Fair enough. I'm a big believer in write what you want, however you want. You'll need to accept that many folks will find this clumsy and it will jump out at them in the wrong way. But go ahead. You've made a case for it, and if you believe in what you're doing, more power to your arm.

I still maintain that smiling WHILE you speak is not the same as smiling your words, but there you go. You wouldn't smile your food, would you? Even if you are smiling as you eat it?

 

So can we make tags out of anything we do with our mouths while speaking?

"Gnargnargnar," he chewed. The uncouth troglodite.

"I am, like, soooo hot," she duck-faced.

"Go to hell," he pouted.

"That makes me sad," she down-turned-mouth-exaggeratedly. The adverb-loving freak.

 

It reads funny when you use physical facial expression/movements to describe the verbalization. This sort of thing might work if you had an audio picture book, with somebody reading the dialogue only.
Otherwise it will be hard to just simply read the dialogue in such a strange fashion. It confuses my brain a little bit.

 

I'm on your side. None of those are tags and neither are "he smiled", "he laughed", "he giggled," "he frowned" or whatever.

 

Facetious as this is, they seem fairly okay. They all conjour images to mind, and that's all a tag has to do, right?

 

That's what a tag or a beat does. Those are beats, and it's a question of grammar.

"I am so hot." She duck-faced. is correct.

 

Okay, that's my laugh of the day! Gnargnargnar....

 

All I can say is after reading hundreds of submissions, heavy use of other tags or having character smile or frown words, etc. makes me think immediately that the writer is an amateur. Because the vast majority of stories I saw where people did that were horribly written. That's why editors have an immediate aversion to some things, and why some things in your story will mark you as an amateur from page one.

 

Yes, and these things become self-fulfilling prophecies: serious writers research what the professionals say and stay away from lots of non-said tags, so it always will be only amateurs that use them in large numbers. But I don't know why people get so angsty about having to follow these "rules" to be taken seriously. They exist for a reason and it's hardly the end of the world to adhere to them. Self-publishing exists for the people who need to write what they want and not what publishers want.

 

"All I can say is after reading hundreds of submissions, heavy use of other tags or having character smile or frown words, etc. makes me think immediately that the writer is an amateur," Steerpike glowered. "Because the vast majority of stories I saw where people did that were horribly written," he wolfed angrily. "That's why editors have an immediate aversion to some things, and why some things in your story will mark you as an amateur from page one," he said sagely, wisely and teacherly.

 

"'All I can say is after reading hundreds of submissions, heavy use of other tags or having character smile or frown words, etc. makes me think immediately that the writer is an amateur,' Steerpike glowered." Jannert smiled as she poked fun at the topic. "'Because the vast majority of stories I saw where people did that were horribly written,' he wolfed angrily." She snickered. "'That's why editors have an immediate aversion to some things, and why some things in your story will mark you as an amateur from page one,' he said sagely, wisely and teacherly." She giggled, rounding up her fun for the day.


This has the potential to grow increasingly unintelligible.......

 

@Tenderiser a lot of it comes down to ways to identify bad stories quickly. I once had almost 200 submissions to read in a month. You quickly learn to identify things in the first page or so that lead to rejecting the story. There isn't time to read every one all the way through, though ideally that is what one wants to do.

 

I agree. I'm certainly no expert at writing, just now learning my way. But I am an avid reader. I currently have close to 3000 books on my kindle and have read/listened to them all. This is just within the past few years and not counting the tubs upon tubs of actual books in my basement. I should sell those....

Listening to the word 'said' over and over again becomes irritating. Especially if the conversation is more than 3 or 4 lines. And I do like tags with more than a couple of lines of conversation. If I have to put the book down for whatever reason, I don't want to have to go all the way back to the top then count every other line to find out who's saying what with where I'm at. And life is full of interruptions, even if it's just your cat jumping on your lap.

Plus, I want to know what the people are feeling. It's not characters to me when I'm reading, it's not the author's skill or whether he's following random rule from who knows where, it's whether or not I can feel what that person in the book is feeling, and understand why they're feeling it. And I know that I personally have never in my life participated in a conversation where each person used the same exact tone throughout every statement. I mean, I'm a boring person, but hopefully not that boring.

Anyway, this is what I prefer as a reader. But I read for enjoyment and to escape from life's trials, not to search for some deeper meaning in life. I learned decades ago there is no deeper meaning, only our delusions of them. Life is hard enough and requires plenty of work and effort, I don't want to have to take notes while reading some imaginary tale.

And I like the word weird......but can never spell the stupid thing without googling it.

 

I want to know what they're feeling, but I don't want to be TOLD what they're feeling. I don't want the author to explain to me, "Now, that remark was angry. Did you get that? Are you sure?" If the words of the dialogue are well-written, I'll usually be able to tell what the character is feeling. If a clue seems needed, then a beat or a description can help. It's rare, IMO, that a non-"said" tag is the best way to communicate with the character is feeling, and even rarer that a tag-adverb is the best way.

 

I understand what you're saying. Yes, I don't want to be made to feel stupid, but I also just don't want to have to guess at it. Or put my own reactions onto the character only to find out later my interpretation was wrong.

I'm not trying to be argumentative in the least, just trying to learn and understand all sides. Those were my views as a reader, now that I'm a wanna-be writer, I may have to adjust them.

Though I may regret it and may need my blankie after, could I get your opinion on the following conversation? Actually, I'd love the opinions of both sides. This is from my current book and it's a very rough first draft. These are 11 year old boys and it's early on in the book. I'm also trying to show the different personalities of the boys through their reactions.

“D-d-do you see...” he stammered.

“Yeah.” Dorn gushed with excitement.

“That is the most amazing thing….” Bane began.

“It's so shiny...” Calt breathed softly.

“Is it real?” Taka asked, aghast.

“We're lookin' at it, aren't we?” Macon demanded.

“What is it?” Dorn asked.

Josu stared, his mouth opened and closed a few times before he could finally force the words out. “The other side of the wall.”

“You never told us about that, ya muck!” Taka declared from where he stood on Josu's left, then shoved him hard, causing him to stumble into Dorn on his right who shoved him back.

If I understand correctly, it's the exact opposite of everything I'm supposed to be doing.

 

Sorry, BC, but I wouldn't be able to read that. This is the problem with too many non-said tags: they come off cartoonish.

“D-d-do you see...” he stammered. << We can see the stammer, so no need to tell us.

“Yeah.” Dorn gushed with excitement. << Someone gushing with excitement doesn't say "Yeah." Show us Dorn's excitement in their dialogue.

“That is the most amazing thing….” Bane began. << We can see he began talking then trailed off. No need to tell us.

“It's so shiny...” Calt breathed softly. << Her words suggest she's awed. Maybe tell us about her wide eyes or how she reaches out to touch it.

“Is it real?” Taka asked, aghast. << Again, don't tell us he's aghast. Show us.

“We're lookin' at it, aren't we?” Macon demanded. << This one's fine, IMO.

“What is it?” Dorn asked. << Also fine, IMO.

Josu stared, his mouth opened and closed a few times before he could finally force the words out. “The other side of the wall.” << Good, you've finally changed up the structure of "Dialogue," tag. to Beat. "Dialogue." You need more variety.

“You never told us about that, ya muck!” Taka declared from where he stood on Josu's left, then shoved him hard, causing him to stumble into Dorn on his right who shoved him back. << Declared is one of the tags I hate most. Makes me think of a pompous arse standing up and throwing his arms wide to make sure nobody misses the Very Important Thing he has to say.

 

Would you change stammer to said then? That doesn't seem too mild for how shocked he is?

And I do beg to differ on the gushing 'Yeah' in excitement. 11 year old boys mainly say only yeah or cool when they're gushing with excitement until they calm down, at least my son and his friends were that way. However, would you word it as 'Dorn's voice was full of excitement' or something along those lines? Does that slow down the conversation of them speaking one right after the other, almost on top of each other?

And I agree completely with your feelings towards declared, but Taka IS a pompous ass. He always thinks people purposely tell him wrong or don't tell him to make him took stupid and needs to let the world know when he's in the right or it's someone else's fault. Would accused be better? But that's still the same non-said thing, isn't it? Or Taka said, his voice strident with accusation as he shoved Josu blah blah?

Or am I just confusing myself unnecessarily and making it more difficult than I need to?

Oh, and thank you for the input. Blankie, though within reach, is not yet clutched.

 

I agree with Tenderiser that those tags feel like a cartoon/children's book. I like the changes suggested, but to me, "Calt breathed softly" isn't that bad, though "Calt breathed" or "Calt said softly" might be better. If you can, I do think showing Calt's admiration another way would be better.

As for the last sentence, I'm not sure your changes would improve it. I know from what Taka's saying and the exclamation point that he's accusing someone. Also, do we have to know exactly where the boys are positioned to each other? As long as we know the dialogue is spoken by Taka to Josu, I think you can leave out the "to his left" and "on his right" stuff. As it is it's just kind of awkward.

Something like this would be better, in my opinion.
Taka glared at Josu. "You never told us about that, ya muck!” Then he shoved Josu hard, causing him to stumble into Dorn, who shoved him back.

If it matters where the boys are in relation to each other, you can just say Taka turned right and glared at Josu.