"Is Your Manuscript Dead on Arrival?" test

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by Simpson17866, Jul 31, 2016.

  1. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    I love you, mat, but your posts scare the shit out of me.
     
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  2. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I disagreed with that one too, even though I could answer 'no [I don't use brand names]'. It might be because my genre (contemporary romance) has a built-in shelf-life anyway, but I do think it adds richness to say "she drank her Sprite" rather than "she drank her lemonade", for example.

    I got six 'wrong', but as some questions were similar they fall into four categories;
    1) I have food-centric scenes. But this question was badly worded; both my food-centric scenes advance the characterisation and plot, but they're still food-centric. So I answered yes, and the test told me this was the 'wrong' answer because scenes must advance the plot.
    2) A POV character doesn't reveal some information to the reader until later in the book. I thought this was a silly part of the test as well, because this can certainly be done well as easily as it can be done badly. You certainly don't want a massive info dump in chapter 1.
    3) My title consists of one word. Neither my agents or any editors seem to find it a problem.
    4) My fight scene has more than four combatants and lasts more than five pages. I've had no complaints.

    All-in-all I thought the test was useful for pointing out clichés or overdone/badly done tropes that new writers might not realise are problematic, but it's not something I'd take seriously.
     
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  3. ChaosReigns

    ChaosReigns Ov The Left Hand Path Contributor

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    With regards to point 4, I have multiple scenes where my characters and the country are in all out war, and it's a bit difficult not to have multiple people fighting... i tend to do it so that the MC throws quick glances in the direction of those he's fighting with to fill out the scene more. they generally don't last long (except for one, that was the climax of the book, and needed to be bigger...)
     
  4. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    I wonder about those, too. According to the test, having a character say, "Goddamn bastard," is gratuitous.

    Also, I used brand names, mostly for cars, because the story is set in the 1960s and—well—nobody drove a Datsun in rural Nova Scotia at the time. On top of that, males especially were very into cars and even if they didn't know how to fix them (which was rare) they knew them by sight. Some could even identify them in the dark just by tail light shape. (And if it was important to the story, I described the car enough to make those importances [is that a word?] clear).

    I also had to be honest with question #11. I have characters use niceties, but only in one scene and the character who does that is not in her right mind. Does that really count?

    Also, #9 lowered my score which I'm not sure is fair, either. The story is first-person and the third word is "me." I mean, it's a first-person POV story. How else would it start but with a pronoun in the first sentence?

    I scored 84, but I was robbed, I tell ya. Robbed! :)
     
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  5. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Yeah... I know why that was in the test, because it certainly WAS difficult to write a scene with that many people (seven, in my case) without it becoming a confusing mess. But at the same time, it wasn't realistic to have just one or two people attack the MC--that would commit the worse sin of having my MC victorious because the antagonist was stupid.
     
  6. ChaosReigns

    ChaosReigns Ov The Left Hand Path Contributor

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    exactly, yes the scene's aren't easy, for sure, but you don't want them to come off as unrealistic.
     
  7. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I've just decided "has food-centric scenes" is on my list of Desirable Traits for a Novel. But then, I do read menus for fun.
     
  8. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    I went to Mcdonalds with a young colleague, and we stood in the queue.

    'What you having?' he said.

    'I'll have a cheese quarter-pounder,' I replied.

    'I think you mean a quarter pounder with cheese,' he said, 'what about your drink, grandad?'

    'I'd like a lemonade,' I said.

    'For god's sake, it's called Sprite,' - he flushed, totally devastated, we changed branches very soon after.
     
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  9. Sack-a-Doo!

    Sack-a-Doo! Contributor Contributor

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    You bring up a good point.

    I think that whole "don't mention brand names" thing is based on the fact that Dickens and Doyle never did. But then, there were so few in those days. I think this is a matter of the test designer being a bit too classic-centric for today's market.
     
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  10. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I've not looked at this test, but in general I like to apply these sorts of things to my absolute favourite all-time novels, and see how they do. If they don't score damn near 100%, then clearly I don't trust the test.
     
  11. izzybot

    izzybot (unspecified) Contributor

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    I got an 88, though I had the same 'food-centric scene' issue as Tenderiser. Like someone else pointed out, it seems pretty geared towards fantasy, so putting my post-apoc novel through it got a lot of questions that weren't really remotely applicable. I kind of wish I'd bombed harder so I could laugh about it - 88's a boring score :p
     
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  12. ChaosReigns

    ChaosReigns Ov The Left Hand Path Contributor

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    you think thats a boring score, i write fantasy and got 64 lol, i think i went too far the other way lol :write:
     
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  13. Simpson17866

    Simpson17866 Contributor Contributor

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    I did say "pretty good," not "the industry gold standard" ;)

    I'm thinking that my WIP is probably good even with these points because my protagonists are drug dealers turned bank robbers (obscenities), some of my characters explicitly use niceties more than others (making it a character thing more than a writing thing), I did explain what the Under Armour was (workout t-shirt) in addition to naming the brand, and I may have answered the pronouns question wrong because the pronoun in the sentence was "I," but the test writer then provided an "I" sentence as an example of what to do "instead of" relying on pronouns.

    Still, it's always good to look at things like this so that if you're doing something most other writers try not to, you can at least make sure you have a reason for why it would work better for you than it tends to when other writers do it.
     
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  14. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    I have a feeling my novel would fail this test miserably just from reading the comments in this thread (UTK is 70% food related). Good thing my publisher doesn't use these as a guideline!
     
  15. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    This one was a poor question for me as well. I have a breakfast scene where my character meets her friend's parents. It's very awkward, there is a huge cultural and social divide and what better way to show it than have the MC not recognize the food while she's trying to hide the fact she's not from the city; not know whether something is soup or a sauce; not realize you don't eat the stems, which is mistaken for "she must be starving" and so on. Not every food centric scene is the proverbial feast I think the author(s) of the test were thinking of.

    This one was annoying. In my case there is one character that doesn't want everyone to know just how long he's been secretly watching the character. The reader gets that much but later he reveals he's seen something else and it has important dramatic effect to not reveal it sooner.

    I'm in the tongue in cheek camp here.

    It's unfortunate people hear about 'rules' and think of it as some sort of formula. Those of us that weren't natural born writers start off with common traits of inexperienced writers. A lot of the so called rules are really just addressing newbie writing and what makes it not read well compared to more skilled authors.

    If you compare a poorly written paragraph to a well written one, it's not easy to see the differences even though you'd think it would be. Those rules, for the most part, are a way to put your finger on the differences.
     
  16. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Okay I did and scored 81/100. At first I thought I'd scored 100/100, but I was watching the quiz's progress bar!

    And it's flawed anyway.

    I failed on 'pronoun in the first sentence', because the very first word is 'I'. I didn't really understand this question. It's quite difficult not to use 'I' in a 1st person narration.

    And I failed on having a food scene - which was ridiculous. It fails this on the grounds that every scene has to advance plot and/or character. Which is EXACTLY what my food scene does.
     
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  17. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    No it's not just you. It seems to me like the literary world is going much the same way as the music industry - mass manufactured authors.
     
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  18. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I think the thing to remember is these AREN'T requirements, even if the test author thinks they are (which is dubious - seemed quite tongue in cheek).

    Like Ginger says, I think most of these "rules" are to steer newbies away from clichés or overdone tropes which they're unlikely to do well. 'Rules' given by people within the industry to serious writers are few and far between and, mostly, have very good justifications behind them. Even if many people don't like them.
     
  19. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    I get your point, but I do think people need to understand WHY something does or doesn't work very well. Just being told do /don't do doesn't teach good writing.

    I also think this quiz is probably tongue-in-cheek. However, it's not OBVIOUSLY tongue-in-cheek. And there will be people out there who think ...oh, shit, I'm only supposed to have two POV characters. Oh shit, I'm not ever supposed to have anybody look in a mirror. Oh shit, I can't have a battle scene that goes on for more than a page or so. Oh, shit, I can't begin my story with a pronoun in the first sentence (so much for "Call me Ishmael.") ....And etc.

    This is patently nonsense, as many very good, contemporary, published fantasy authors do all of these things (like Joe Abercrombie ...wish I had his writing income!) but unless new writers understand WHY it's a good idea to pay attention to these issues, it's just another list of 'don'ts.' The list seems to get longer day by day.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2016
  20. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    Yeah, which is why I think it's important that we (people who know these aren't actual requirements) don't refer to them as such, or make out that writers actually need to adhere to them to get published. :D
     
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  21. halisme

    halisme Contributor Contributor

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    Ninety four. I apologise verbosely, but I do not believe that I need a thesaurus, when I have a quite a wide grasp of the English Language.
     
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  22. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    I thought that one was strange as well. Although I did agree with the explanation in that someone should only use a thesaurus based on the context of the sentence/scenario.

    Sometimes I find synonyms when I know the right word is out there, but my brain has decided it would rather have white noise.
     
  23. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Point taken. But a list like that can certainly lead to story elements being 'required.' :) Or if not actually 'required' at least 'highly recommended.' And taken seriously by new writers as 'don'ts.'
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2016
  24. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Funny thing that. I was just using my Roget's Thesaurus about an hour ago, trying to come up with a succinct way of saying my character went temporarily off his nut and galloped around in an aimless fashion until he finally regained his self control and calmed down. Um.
     
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  25. Spencer1990

    Spencer1990 Contributor Contributor

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    Personally, I like what you have there. :D
     
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