Foreign words and phrases are actually one of the correct uses of italics. Yes, there are correct uses. But unspoken dialogue isn't one of them. Italics are often misused as duct tape for poor writing. Resist the urge.
No - not the first time, every time. The italics reminds the reader that the word is not part of the language of the reader. Why is that important? Well, let's say you're transliterating ancient Hebrew (just chose it because it's an easy example). "He went to the store." The word in italics here, is Hebrew and means "she." "Who went to the store." The word in italics here, means "he." So, if you start writing it without italics: "Who went to the store." "Who did?" "Did he go as well?" "Who?" Yes, Marvin said, "She did go." _____ Confusing, isn't it? With italics, it's clears it all up. "Who went to the store." "Who did." "Did he go as well?" "Who?" Yes, Marvin said, "She did go." _____________ Alright, you're saying that's not necessarily that much clearer - and you're right to a point, but that's because that kind of writing is not very good. However, the italics clearly indicates when "Who" and "He" should be translated, or when it should just be read as an English word. The key is that the italics always signifies whether to apply English definitions, or a semantic domain of a similar word in another language. ___ While this is a very overly dramatic way to conceptualize it, the point remains that you should always use italics on foreign words, or if you want to emphasize a word or phrase - though the latter is sometimes looked at askance. EDIT: I just looked up "Chicago Manual of Style," which, it seems, is the most common style manual publishers use. From what I can tell, there are cases where foreign terms should only be italicized once, and then cases where they might be italicized more. If you want a definite answer, I'd get a copy of the style manual. Since it's the one most used by publishers from what I can tell (just did a small search on it), I think it'd be a good idea for us writers to keep it on our desk during the editing phase.
Hi. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but you make many claims there. Can you please provide some evidence to back them up? I'd be much appreciative. Again, can you back this up with substance. For example: are all modern (american) novels devoid of semicolons? Please forgive me for my ignorance. Just want to get to the root of your claims and see how true they are. Many thanks
Well... which claims? I don't mean to sound as snippy below as I do, but I'm not clear on what needs proving. The claim that it's possible to be published _without_ using italics for thoughts, and without using semicolons, seems to be proven by the many, many published books that don't use either one. It seems clear that you're not required to use them. The claim that some people don't like thoughts in italics doesn't seem to need proving - it's evident right in this thread. I can tell you that when I've seen the subject discussed elsewhere, by agents or writers or other people who are in the writing business, the pro-italics statements seem to be pretty soft. I've rarely seen anyone say, "A novel without thoughts in italics is unreadable!" Instead it's things like, "Well, I choose to use them..." or "Well, they can be a useful tool..." or, "Well, even good writers sometimes use them..." There's an air of defensiveness, which suggests that the use of italics for thoughts is seen as something that needs defending, rather than something that is standard practice. I can tell you that, and it's an accurate representation of my experience in reading about the subject. But I haven't gathered evidence or published a study, so all you can really do is go search for discussion of the subject and see if you get the same impression that I do. The claim that agents or publishers are less likely to represent or publish a book that uses a writing style that they see as seriously flawed doesn't seem to need proving, it sems logical. Sure, maybe it's false. Maybe an agent that hates a particular writing choice will nevertheless offer to represent a book that is filled with writing that represents that choice, even when he doesn't know if the author of that book has the ability to change that choice. Maybe he'll sign the author and wait a few weeks or months to see if he made a mistake in doing so. It just doesn't strike me as a way for an author to maximize his odds of being accepted. If I know that some agents and publishers hate X and see it as a mark of inferior writing, and others can take or leave X, and I'm not all that invested in X, then I'm going to leave X out of my writing. If I'm presented with evidence that some agents and publishers see a _lack_ of X as a mark of inferior writing, then I'll reconsider. That's not my impression about these two writing choices. > Again, can you back this up with some substance. For example: are > all modern (american) novels devoid of semicolons? I don't need "all". I don't need absolute proof that a novel containing thoughts in italics, or containing semicolons, cannot possibly, under any circumstances, get published in the United States. All I need is a belief that those things reduce my odds of being published. That is my belief. In the case of thoughts in italics, I hate those anyway, so I'm not going to use them. In the case of semicolons, I love the things, so I continue to resist eliminating them. But I know that by doing so, I'm not doing myself any favors, in terms of hopes for future publication.
Cog is absolutely correct. I've thrown most of them out of my novel in the last half (first half will get the same treatment during editing.). As I mentioned earlier, might not have been the best example since I kind of threw something together spur of the moment. The best way, and I agree with cog 1000% is to learn how to blend a character's thoughts into your dialogue paragraphs seamlessly. You don't have to say, she reflected, realized, thought, in that paragraph either. It can be blended into the paragraph, and, I'm sure others will disagree with me, but it's one of the biggest skills to master to get published. CK
All I asked for was some simple supporting evidence to enrich the discussion. I get the feeling you're annoyed, or perhaps being unnecessarily defensive. You mixed the issues there. Clearly the question was focused on the semicolon claim. Is asking for a bit of substance such a bad thing? You said and I asked Yes, no or don't know would've sufficed. I respect your beliefs. But I'll take them with a pinch of salt until I've seen some strong evidence. I won't be eliminating semicolons (in general, from my fictional work) based on any of the discussions I've seen on this site (so far). With my own senses, I've clearly seen many examples where semicolons are used skillfully, with good artistic effect. You talk as if they're heroin or something lol
Sorry - of course it's "I don't know". In the many, many American books that I've read, I've never noticed a semicolon. And I'm motivated to notice them, because I don't want to accept that I can't use them. I do notice them, and am generally pleased by them, in older British books. I've also noticed a few times in American books when the book cries out for them, when a sentence is in fact grammatically incorrect with a comma and would have been correct with a semicolon, but there's a comma anyway. This makes me curious--did the author use them and the editor replace them wholesale with commas? That does suggest that an author can get published even if they write with semicolons, but that they'd do better to eliminate them themselves rather than risk search-and-replace butchery of their prose. But that is, yes, speculation based on no evidence at all. Re semicolons being used with good effect--yes, as I said, I love the things. In the unlikely event that I'm ever not only published, but my books are profitable enough that I can set my terms, the semicolons will come back. But it's my conclusion for my own writing that eventually I need to break my habit That of course doesn't mean that I'm pushing you to take my advice. For that matter, in the case of semicolons, it's not even advice, it's a statement of what I'm going to do--eventually.
