Italics and exclamations

Discussion in 'Word Mechanics' started by marcusl, Aug 1, 2009.

  1. EyezForYou

    EyezForYou Active Member

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    And of those four: who is the most popular, who makes the most money, and who is recognized world wide?

    For those who absolutely loathe italics, dashes, and the exclaimation marks--you do not want to read Edgar Allen Poe, lol.
     
  2. Unit7

    Unit7 Contributor Contributor

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    um Stephenie Meyer??? Just noticed I use alot of questionmarks/exclamation marks when I am being sarcastic and or pointing out a terrible fact.
     
  3. Ghosts in Latin

    Ghosts in Latin New Member

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    Using italics to signify something like a thought is no lazier than using quotations to signify someone speaking. While it's entirely possible to signify something, like thinking or speaking, within the context of its writing — to claim that using a different means of signification is a "typographical gimmick" is absurd and insulting.

    The presentation of one's text can add a lot to a story, and some authors choose one presentation over another. If the chosen means with which one conveys something are used well, then so be it, whether it be using italics to signify thought, or using adverbs. Regarding it as a "gimmick," "lazy," or any other such meaningless insult does absolutely nothing.
     
  4. marina

    marina Contributor Contributor

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    I just looked at Terry Prachett's Nation and Charlaine Harris's Dead and Gone (Sookie Stackhouse; book 9) and found that they both used italics pretty liberally but nowhere as much as Stephen King does. However, for the most part, internal thoughts were not italicized.

    Perhaps the best thing to do is look at books in the genre you're writing and see how those writers are using it.
     
  5. Kas

    Kas New Member

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    As a reader, I much prefer to see thoughts in italics.

    When I encounter thoughts punctuated as dialogue, it should be no surprise that I (wrongly) read them as spoken words, until I get to the "he thought" tag, where I must then quickly reassess what I've just read. . . This is just slightly tedious, but the tedium is exaggerated by the fact that it's unnecessary.

    If I read the same thought in italics, I immediately know what I'm reading, and can appreciate it for what it is while I read it. You could counter this by putting some "he thought" equivalent preceding the thought. . . a "heads up!" if you will. . but then the text is still inefficient. You end up using more words than you actually need to, cluttering your script with pointless fluff.

    I'll kiss the butt of my publisher, and do whatever they seem to prefer. . . but I feel that my writing suffers without italicised thought. Throwing in extra words because italics are "lazy" seems like seriously flawed reasoning.

    I would liken this to the description issue. Some people like to write page-long purple prose paragraphs to describe a fawn eating grass. When critiquing the piece, we stress efficiency. We try to help the author evoke the same feelings and sense of atmosphere, (if it's important) while using as few words as possible.

    Why are italics different? Why is efficiency suddenly lazy?

    Again, my argument is based on what I appreciate as a reader. Should we not give the readers what they want?

    If italics are the most efficient way to accomplish what you set out to achieve, why is it not the best way? If italics provide the clearest communication (I know instantly what I'm reading without the use of superfluous words), why is this not the best method of communication?

    I can only assume that this is some weird publisher/writer pet peeve, and completely irrelevant to what readers appreciate.
     
  6. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Thoughts CAN be punctuated as normal dialogue, according to the Chicago Manual of Style, but the preferred method is to show them as normal text, without quote marks.

    There are specific uses for italics, and a couple of the most commonly used ones take place within dialogue: foreign words and phrases, and emphasis on a word.

    If you format your unspoken dialogue as italics, you cannot use italics properly within the unspoken dialogue.

    And seriously, "because I like it better that way" is not a good reason to ignore a writing standard. Neither is "But he does it that way!"

    If a publisher chooses to typeset it that way, that is beyond your control. It's also beyond your control if the publisher decides to follow the standard, and turn all your italicized literal thoughts as normal text, If your writing doesn't make it clear enough without the typoggraphic smoke and mirrors, you're screwed.

    If you want to cover your bases, make a named style in your Word templatge you use for manuscript, and call it something like "unspoken dialogue." Mark all your internal dialogue with that style, and when you are proofreading your writing, leave the style defined as normal text. That way you will know if you are clear enough with your writing alone. If, and only if, your publisher wants internal thougts rendered as italics, change the definition of your custom style to italicize the dialogue (or undeline it, which is the manuscript standard to indicate italicized text).

    But never, ever write in a way that depends on a non-standard typographic stunt. And that is what I mean when I call it lazy writing.
     
  7. Kas

    Kas New Member

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    That's a great point. Somehow I missed the implication in your previous post. Most of the time it doesn't seem to matter, but at least this gives me a solid reason to avoid using italics that way.

    Thank you for taking the time to explain; I really appreciate it. I've read through numerous threads on this topic, but most of the posts express opinion. There's very little concrete information given. Considering how often this comes up, perhaps you should write up a template post, but try to minimise the presence of opinion.
     
  8. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I do discuss it somewhat in my blog entry He said, she said - Mechanics of Dialogue. But it is one of those topics that there is a lot of opinion about. When I first encountered it, I wasn't sure either, so I researched the hell out of it.
     
  9. mammamaia

    mammamaia nit-picker-in-chief Contributor

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    i'd also love to have you do a sticky post on just the italics issue, cog, so i can just send the link to all my mentees who love argue for using them...

    and be sure to include this latest addition to your brilliant case for the prosecution!

    love and hugs, maia
     
  10. Atari

    Atari Active Member

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    I was reading 'Sackett's Land,' and it was very interesting in its use of exclamation points.

    He had not used an exclamation point theretofore, and suddenly, it came out of nowhere and actually kinda surprised me.

    Exclamation points can be used to great effect, if they are used only judiciously.

    Moreover, to Kas, thoughts within narrative are often without any encompassing punctuation.
    For example:

     

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