Keeping my character from becoming a Mary Sue?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by Holo, May 17, 2012.

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  1. twilightguardian

    twilightguardian New Member

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    Because no one/very few people like Mary Sue characters. When I say upset readers, I don't mean in a good way. I mean slam your book/their screen shut and feel like throwing your book/their computer across the room upset. Mary Sues make people angry because it insults their intelligence. The author is trying to pass off something like a $200 decorated block of cheese and tells you that it's supposed to be a DS.
     
  2. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    Of course not. It's a tautology.

    A Mary Sue is basically any character you don't like. It's a term that avoids giving an actual reason.

    So people don't like Mary Sue characters.
     
  3. KinkyCousin

    KinkyCousin New Member

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    To me a Mary-Sue is a particular type of character I dislike. They have barely any flaws (or "cute" flaws, or flaws that are told but never shown), they have way too many people fawning over them and they are pretty much always right in the end. Often they are an idealised version of the author or the person they wish they were. My prime example is Bella Swan in Twilight. Other characters I dislike don't fit my idea of a Mary-Sue.
     
  4. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    That's the problem. Because no one sticks to the actual definition of a Mary Sue, the term has come to mean exactly what the person throwing the label around defines as a weak/shallow/annoying character.

    It is totally subjective, and therefore totally useless.
     
  5. KinkyCousin

    KinkyCousin New Member

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    Indeed, you have a point. The type of character I've always associate with that term is basically a type of self insert for wish fulfillment, those are the characters I do my best to avoid creating. Others consider the term to mean something else so in real literary criticism it is too vague.
     
  6. twilightguardian

    twilightguardian New Member

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    Just because a term is subjective doesn't make it useless. There are clear differences between a Sue and a Non-Sue. It's mostly having to do with which cliches. Yes, a character can be cliched, and many Sues are but it doesn't necessarily mean a cliche'd character is a Sue. I think it would be better if we could come to an agreement on which traits and characteristics are Sue and which aren't. Probably starting from the worst examples, and then working the way down into more muddy waters. Also, I think it would help if everyone stopped redefining what a Sue was for their own convenience.

    For instance, being a princess is cliche, being a 700 year old half elf/angel/cat/tea cup/fairy yet looks like they're in the body of a 16 year old is Sueish. Having the name Sapphire/Serenity/Ember/Sammantha is cliche, being named StarlightRose Prisma Geminite Sugar Skyshimmer-Sunburst is ridiculous.

    In fanfiction, being the love interest of a popular character is cliche. Being the love interest of A-ko, B-ko, C-ko, F-kon, M-ka, and having H, J, P and U with major crushes on you and no other female/male character can compete romantically is kind of Sueish and stupid.

    There are instances where some of these things could be dealt with properly, but it all depends on the author's skill and reasons for why this happens. Failing to have legitimate reasons other than wish fulfillment or because it seems cool and you want your character to stand out is where the Sue-ness comes in. I think already most people can agree on many traits of Sue tendencies, but there are a fringe of people who use a different definition and that confuses people.
     
  7. Cogito

    Cogito Former Mod, Retired Supporter Contributor

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    I must disagree with your point, but I'll admit to an exasperated chuckle first.

    Cliche is another word more often misused. At least cliche does have a legitimate meaning with respect to phrases and metaphors.

    There is no such thing as a cliche character. There is no such thing as a cliche plot. It is a lazy way of dismissing an element of writing that requires no analysis. You simply brand it with a label and smugly walk away.

    Every story can be pigeonholed as resembling dozens of others. The same is true of characters. This does not mean the plot or character is cliche. It merely means the observer insists on only taking a superficial view of the plot or character.

    Mary Sue is exactly the same kind of dismissive labeling based on a very shallow snapshot of a character. Quite frankly, I'm disgusted by it, as it is a poor substitute for actual analysis.
     

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