40k. Harry Potter. Star Trek. Mage the Ascension. D&D. SCP. I know that there's like, a shitload of really large, really intricate worlds with all-encompassing and really weird made up metaphysics and fictional civilizations and so much. All of it fictional and obsessed over by nerds. Is this something recent or is it something that's been with us for a long time, only that it didn't get passed down through the ages? Is our sudden prosperity and free time and internet what allows and propels us to create such intricate fictional worlds just for fun and entertainment?
Edgar Rice Burroughs wrote multiple books each about a civilization at the center of the earth, and civilization on Mars. Most of those were written more than a century ago.
^ Yep. Andre Norton did the same, only hers was a galaxy-spanning universe of far-flung worlds and various kinds of aliens (mostly originally Terran colonists changed by the environments of the planets they live on). I think she started writing in the 40's, up into the 80's. Isaac Asimov's Foundation Trilogy and Doc E.E. Smith's Lensman series (the word Lens referring to a galaxy) were written in maybe the 30's & 40's. Both massively epic space-borne civilizations spanning at least a galaxy if not several.
Basically writers and imagineers of all kinds explore all of the known universe and always have. In the days of ancient Greece the known universe consisted of the Hellenistic world and a scattering of regions around it. They had no idea the Earth was a ball floating in space, or that those dots in the night sky have others swarming around them. Shortly after this became known writers started to exploit them. Especially since the entirety of the earth had been pretty well explored and mapped by then, so we pushed our boundaries outward to the new frontiers of space.
Lord Dunsany's Pegana mythology is considered to be the first true fictional universe if I recall correctly. But then there's Tolkien... I'm hesitant to post this next part as I'm the guy who has read 10 Tolkien books, has memorized tens of pages of song/poem text and runs a Youtube channel called Tolkien Memorised. What I mean is, I'm extremely passionate about Tolkien's works and fundamentally believe he has the largest and most developed fictional universe, without question. All I need to say is that I've read 10 books and I still read sections of lore which make me think I'm a novice. Reading the deeper Tolkien books is like reading a technical manual. It's astonishing the amount of depth involved. Nevermind the languages, there are specific units of measurement just for the Numenoreans. This is what a standard note looks like: "The reference to the Quenta at the end of this section, if to Q, is to IV. 87; if to QS, to $37. On this point see p. 168. The two texts have no significant difference in this section, except that Lhammas A ends thus: The tongue of the Teleri on Tol-eressea became therefore somewhat sundered from the speech of the Lindar and Noldo." Or this... "To give the whole of FN II is therefore unnecessary. Retaining the paragraph numbering of FN I, I give $$ 1 - 5 and 14 in full, and of the remainder only such short passages as were significantly altered." Or this... "at the beginning of the second element of a compounded word (or of the second word in two words standing in a very close syntactic relation, as noun and article) underwent the same change as it would when standing in ordinary medial position." Most of the Legendarium publications are just Christopher's notes and discussions on how he pieced together the unbelievably complex and layered changing narratives of Ea/Arda. The History of Middle Earth is a 12-volume series that makes PhD theses look like pop-up books. Linguistics, theology and all sorts of learned topics are discussed at length. The Silmarillion is my favourite work of fiction. It chronicles thousands of years of history in just under 400 pages, so it is incredibly dense. It has such gravitas. It is the most beautiful book I've ever read: In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased. Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.' The Book of Lost Tales is part of The History of Middle Earth and it tells the story of The Silmarillion but in extremely primitive and archaic language. And all the names are changed and you have to keep track of that. This is hardcore fantasy reading. "Lo! now he is chirping Eldar like a lady of the Inwir, even Meril-iTurinqi our queen herself — Manwë care for her. But even these be not all — there is beside the secret tongue in which the Eldar wrote many poesies and books of wisdom and histories of old and earliest things, and yet speak not. This tongue do only the Valar use in their high counsels, and not many of the Eldar of these days may read it or solve its characters. Much of it I learnt in Kôr, a lifetime gone, of the goodness of Aulë, and thereby I know many matters: very many matters.’ ‘Then,’ quoth Eriol, ‘maybe you can tell me of things that I greatly desire to know since the words by the Tale-fire yestereve. Who be the Valar — Manwë, Aulë, and the ones ye name — and wherefore came ye Eldar from that home of loveliness in Valinor?'" I'm going to have to stop. I could spend days trying to convince people of the depth of Tolkien. The Trilogy is a tiny, tiny part of the whole... I wish people knew that. If Legolas and Gimli are the tip of the iceberg, the very bottom is Lindo and the wizard Tu. Most people have no idea Tolkien even wrote more than the Trilogy...
Frank Baum wrote 14 Oz books in the early 1900s. The first few he loved writing and he became a hit with a following of children that used to write him letters. He would even tweak the stories for the kids. But then he got tired Oz and wanted to branch off into theater but he didn't have the money. Writing Oz books gave him the money - but I think by book 14 it was a love hate thing - nothing else he wrote caught on. He was stuck with Oz. Later on they hired other writers to write new Oz stories and it's hard to find an accurate list of how many Oz books there are cause people are still writing them. Then there's Freddy the Pig - lol. I don't think paperbacks started till the early 30s, which I think is when series could really catch on because printing them would be lots cheaper. My guess is series fiction might have appeared more in magazines. They could print them cheaper and by releasing them in installments - issue by issue - keep you buying more.
The nerd culture part of course is new, at least the extent of it. I know in the 50's and 60's there were small clubs in many cities where science fiction and fantasy buffs (now called nerds) would get together and be able to talk to each other. There's always been something about sci-fi and fantasy in particular that strongly affects certain people with a powerful imagination. Many of them end up writers or filmmakers. In fact the reason I know this is because I heard about it in the special features of Harryhausen DVDs and the like, from people like Ray Harryhausen and his friends Ray Bradberry and Forrest Ackerman. I know in the 60's there were 'fanzines', cheap mimeographed magazines (more like pamphlets really) made by fans with all kinds of trivia and pictures about sci-fi and fantasy and monster movies etc. Other things too I'm sure, probably celebrities and who knows what else. This might have started in the 50's, I'm not sure. But as the technology grows it allows for broader and more intricate communication between enthusiasts. Of course the internet was the big explosion. Oh, going back a ways, in Lovecraft's day (and I'm sure before) there were groups of pen pals who would write letters to each other. Writers formed groups (Lovecraft was in one) and send unpublished manuscripts to each other. They had a system—after you read it you'd send it on to the next person on the list, and then send out mass letters to everyone with your comments. It was an early version of this message board. Nerd culture grew from this kind of crude beginnings. By some time in the 70's there were commercially-produced magazines for these niche trends, like Cinema Fantastique, Famous Monsters of Filmland, and loads of others. Then there were the groups of heavy metal fans in the 80's, the early Metallica days, who would send each other bootlegged and rare recordings on cassette tape, much like the writing groups did with manuscripts. But this time it wasn't mainly the artists themselves (though they often did take part, especially before they were in a successful band) but fans.
Also pulp magazines (there were many for sci-fi and fantasy, going way back into the 20's and 30's) had ads in the back pages where fans could write in. I'm pretty hazy on this, but it was something like you could get your name on a list and be sent information, or maybe they'd connect up people for mass pen-pal groups or something. Somebody might have better info on this than me. But yeah, fans would buy the pulps avidly and scour the little ads in the back pages. Tiny little paragraphs, often just a few cryptic words, that would make your heart race because you knew this can connect you to a world of excitement, to other fans like yourself across the country or the world. I remember buying several new games this way in the early 80's. The games were made by small groups of fans, and rather than coming in a big cardboard box with professionally printed full-color graphics and a sturdy cardboard game-board that folds down the middle, you'd get a large plastic sandwich baggie with a bunch of game pieces printed on paper (or thin cardboard sometimes) in a single color, just line art, and the board would be a folded piece of printed paper. All drawn by amateurs, and the game designed by amateurs. But they'd let people know for instance that they want game testers to play and send in their comments to help create the next version (beta testers basically). It was heady, exciting stuff for sure. And this all in the days before even cable TV. There were only 5 channels on TV, most playing black-and-white movies. You'd look through the TV Guide when it came out each week to see if anything good was coming on and you'd make your plans around that. Sometimes when there was a cool sci-fi movie and you couldn't get to your friend's house to watch it you'd call each other during the commercials and then hang up when it was coming back on. All this stuff was actually way more exciting in those days because it was much more rare. Maybe one good sci-fi movie coming out in a year, 2 or 3 in a really good year. When it got to be routine and there were more coming out all the time than you can keep track of (and many of them Sy-Fy Channel level) it just lost a lot of the excitement.
I'm sure the man himself didn't consider it fictional, but perhaps Dante Alighieri's vision of the afterlife is one of the earliest examples of intricate world conceived largely from the imagination/inspiration of a single writer? Also a very early example of fanfiction, though I think THAT concept actually goes all the way back to Ancient Greece.
This is not as nerd obessessed, but mostly forgotten: The Oz Series by L. Frank Baum. It's a 13 book series with so much lore!
Its been with us a reasonable length of time, certainly long before the internet. Think about the worlds created by Enid Blyton and her Enchanted wood/Faraway Tree, or CS Lewis and Narnia which is a large and inctricate fictional world. Things like 40k and Dungeons and Dragons are a collaberation between many many people, writers and artists, and they too started long before people had the internet and lots of free time. These were very much deliberate commercial ventures.
I've found with these sort of things that it is rare for them to be designed as massive sprawling worlds initially and that comes much later as one story builds on another story builds on another story. Star Trek is a good example of this, the worlds and organisations becoming more detailed and solid as time goes on. In the 60's the rules for how the technology operates were far more woolly than they would become in the 90's incarnations of the show, same for the various cultures of the alien races. I would think things like the Norse and Greek mythologies are the first of this type of sprawling worldbuilding? Most ancient polytheistic religions had their characters engage in all manner of amazing and bizarre adventures over unimaginable stretches of time. You could go so far as to say the modern equivalent of these being the DC and Marvel universes, comic book writer Grant Morrison is fond of thinking of Superman as some primal sun god and that reading does make a sort of sense. To my mind this impulse has been with people since the beginning, probably because it is loads of fun to invent new worlds or maybe it came from trying to make sense of the world before science was a thing. I have absolutely no idea where the impulse comes from or why people have it, but the reason it is so cool to obsess over these things must be because it scratches some itch that a lot of people have. Perhaps initially it was a way of explaining the weirdness of the world and then later, in modern times, as fun escapism........ from the weirdness of the world?
I'm currently beasting through the writing of Jack Vance, and I have to say his worldbuilding is about the best there is. Some of it is sci-fi like, but it's always with a fantastical element that doesn't pretend to be hard sci-fi. On top of all that, his characters are great, and his plots are edge-of-the-seat good. I can't believe I've lived nearly 72 years and never read him before. He's a true master. He does all this fantastic worldbuilding, while remaining readable, and matter-of-fact. He says, about writing: "If I adhere to any fundamental principle in my writing, perhaps it is my belief that the function of fiction is to amuse or entertain the reader. The mark of good writing, in my opinion, is that the reader is not aware that the story has been written. As he reads, the ideas and images flow into his mind as if he were living them. The utmost accolade a writer can receive is that the reader is unaware of his presence." I couldn't agree more. If you want a good chuckle, read his Cugel series. (It's what I started with. And was immediately hooked. The Dying Earth collection.) If you want a really absorbing, old-fashioned medieval-era fantasy saga, read the Lyonesse Trilogy. If you want more of a sci-fi hard-edged series, read The Demon Princes. And/or The Cadwal Chronicles. But there are SO many others! I feel like a kid in a candy store, knowing there are still so many stories of his that I've not read yet.
Anthony Trollope comes to mind, even if he set his novels in real life. His two major series and some of his other books are all interconnected to varying degrees in terms of character and event. It's pretty vast when you put everything together.
The creating of worlds is really just about asking questions. If you want to write a world where, say, there's a floating colony in Venus' atmosphere, there are automatically questions of who they are, how they got there, and how they are surviving. Next are questions of how they get their supplies, what fuels their vehicles, and how they breathe. Then there's their relationship with outsiders, if it exists at all. Essentially, if you have a character or characters who exist in a certain state, you have to supply reasons for that state and readers can at any time ask questions about it. And if you can ask questions, you can answer them, which means you can make the world bigger. So there's really no reason why complex worlds can't be ancient. Like fairies in Ireland, I guess. ...I hate to be that person, but I just got done reading some Immanuel Velikovsky, whose research spans thousands of years. His work makes it pretty clear that Greeks and many other ancient cultures were in fact aware that the Earth was a ball in space, even if they didn't necessarily use that terminology. The ancients were quite obsessed with space and astrology, as that was how they told time and calculated the years.
I used to know that. How did I forget? I think somebody like Pythagoras even calculated the approximate size of the earth and came pretty close. Most of the outcry against it was from christians because it goes against the biblical story of creation, and even most of them understood the truth (or something very close to it) but had to say what they did (and punish heretics) because it was the church's official position. But I think it was only a handful of really smart Greeks. Then as now the vast majority believe all kinds of crazy things.
Again to be that person, no, it doesn't go against the Biblical story of creation. Nothing about the Bible requires a flat world. This misconception came about in Galileo's day, mostly due to Galileo's arrogance in promoting his work. People defied him because they disliked him, not because the Bible requires a flat world. And also I'm pretty sure there were other cultures who had an understanding of space, though I can't remember what they are at the moment.
@GraceLikePain you should consult the mods and see about getting your name changed to That Person (or Not That Person)...
I've heard of them and I can't remember either. I believe Stonehenge is supposed to be some kind of celestial calendar, and so are many other ancient constructions sites, built with incredible precision.
I've done a little research on this from time to time, and belief in a flat earth was not at all universal in the medieval world. Here is an excerpt from the treatise The Reckoning of Time, written by The Venerable Bede (a Catholic saint to boot) in 725: "The reason why the same [calendar] days are of unequal length is the roundness of the Earth, for not without reason is it called "the orb of the world" on the pages of Holy Scripture and of ordinary literature. It is, in fact, a sphere set in the middle of the whole universe. It is not merely circular like a shield [or] spread out like a wheel, but resembles more a ball, being equally round in all directions, but not a in a mass of equal magnitude--although I would believe that the enormous mass of mountains and valleys neither adds to it nor diminishes it any more than a finger would a playing ball." This passage seems to imply that a round earth was commonly accepted. Apparently Roger Bacon also argued for a round earth. Bede, The Reckoning of Time - Beda (Venerabilis), Beda Venerabilis (helgon.), el Venerable Beda (Santo), Bede Venerabilis Staff, Bede, the Venerable, Saint, 673-735 - Google Books
