Lost faith in my book - friends and family beta readers and hurt feelingd

I know it's hard, but unfortunately that's the case with lots of people. They would love to see you do well, but they just aren't interested in what you have actually written.

I suppose it's the same as any 'hobby,' really. And I'm sure that's how they see it. You really aren't interested in toy train sets and the work and thought that goes into building an environment, complete with tiny trees, etc. You may well take a glance at what your nearest and dearest has created, but you're not going to want to stand there watching the little trains circling the track and offering insight as to whether or not this tree should be over there, or if it should have been an evergreen rather than a deciduous one, or offering opinions on whether you think the scene needs more buildings or not. Instead, you're happy to live with them doing their hobby in one room, while get on with your own next door.

I reckon people who are not writers themselves tend to think of writing as a hobby. (Until you get published and make a fortune!) This doesn't really reflect on how they feel about you.

However, if they expect you to read and critique and help them with what they're producing, but refuse to help you in return? Even when you ask for help? That's selfish. The only real response is to stop doing these favours for them. Just use whatever excuse they use on you. Haven't got time. Too busy. I'll get around to it later (then don't bother.) It just might cause a penny to drop in their brains, but even if it doesn't, at least you won't end up feeling used.

I've had a few close friends who didn't read my novel, or started it and didn't get past the first few pages. I truly don't think less of them for it. I've had enough people who did finish and give incredibly valuable feedback to know I've done okay. It's just that tastes differ. I have lots of friends who are musicians, including several who are semi-famous in their circles, and who have been recorded. While I love all of these people to bits, I don't necessarily love their music. In a couple of cases I actually dislike the music they make. So I won't attempt to critique it.

 

I think you've pretty much summed it up! And made me laugh as well.

 

Exactly.

To cast it in a slightly different and more personal light; like a lot of people in long term relationships (10+ years) I don't have the greatest sex life. In fact I don't really have a sex life and even if I did I know my fiance and I know there's certain things that I like that are just not happening. It's stuff that really matters to me and she doesn't even make the effort, doesn't even act like she knows about it. And yeah that feels hurtful. The fact I can't remember the last time I got laid is not a positive thing. And it's hard not to take that stuff personally, it feels very personal. But it's not personal. It's different people with different interests and drives and desires and that's just what that is. If I really twisted her arm I could get her to play along, but if she's not having fun too then I don't want to do it.

It's awesome if you can share things that really matter to you. But if you have to beg you aren't sharing them. And thinking in terms of 'they'd do it if they really cared' is looking at it from the wrong direction. If you really care about them then you wouldn't try to make them do something they clearly don't want to do. That's stuff that just murders relationships of all kinds. Because it's not personal. And treating it like it is will just lead to you burning bridges.

 

These analogies aren't working on me because if someone created a train set they loved, or renovated a house or built a model airplane or whatever, I would be interested because it was their work and I love them. I can't relate to people being uninterested in something a loved-one has spent hours on. I totally WOULD stand there and watch the little train go around. I wouldn't comment on the trees because I know zilch about model trains, but I'm not asking for critique for my work.

They also aren't working because both of these friends are big readers, and neither hate my genre (even if it isn't their go-to). And there's the fact that I didn't send my second book since they didn't bother with the first, but they asked and asked for it, and then the third one as well...

Anyway, I don't want to hi-jack the OP's thread. I just wanted to tell him he isn't alone.

 

What about the person who is close to you, is well read, and flakes out on your wip even after you tell them "this would mean a lot to me, even if you don't like it"?

There's an argument that people today are bad at commitment. It's in large part due to to the email culture. We get so many emails, we've learned how to put people on hold indefinitely.


Either way, it's not productive to worry about these people. It's better to get strangers who would happily tell you your work sucks.

 

If this is how you feel, do NOT marry her!

 

I would too, but there's a difference between watching the trainset do it's thing and rolling up your sleeves and learning how trainsets work so you can help them make a better train set. That's the difference here. Think about kids playing sport. And they suck at it, because they are kids. But the parents come along and cheer the kids on no matter how crappy and no matter how disinterested they are. They take the time to cheer their kid on, but they mostly don't go out every night to throw a ball with their kids.

There's levels here, that's what I'm saying. Most of us are happy to come and cheer on people we care, even when it's deathly dull to us. We go and see their team or their band and be proud of them when they accomplish things. But to go and pick up an instrument and learn it from scratch to play in your brothers band when you don't even like the music he plays? That's a bit much for most people, a long way past just sharing someone else's enjoyment in their hobby. So, there's a scale here, from what most people are happy to do (cheering you on) to what most people aren't happy to do (speaking esperanto at home so they can learn a fictional language). Reading your book is somewhere in the middle, and beta reading is a bit harder than that.

Going to see a band play, even a fucking awful band, is not that taxing. There's beer there. And if the band really sucks then there's tequila. And who knows, maybe there will be girls there; exciting punk girls with mohawks and weird piercings that you can impress by being friends with the band. So whatever, easy done. It'll make him happy and even if it's deathly you can find a way to have fun. Even checking out someone's trainset is not awful. At least you have your friend actually there to tell you what specifically is interesting about it.

Reading a book is not that kind of experience. You do that alone and we've all read bad books and know how painful that is. But anything else you do to try and improve the experience is just taking you away from actually reading the book. It's a lot to ask, a lot of time and it could really be awful every step of the way, or boring or just be a thing they don't care for. And expecting someone to donate eight hours of their lives to demonstrate they care? They have lives, they have other stuff to do. A lot of people have problems finding time to read things they know they are going to like.

As for betareading; it's like, in so many words, spending a whole day walking around your friends shed full of trainsets while he's not there and being asked to give feedback on which ones you don't like. You could learn trainsets off your own back, find out which things matter. But much more likely you just say 'Nah, I'm busy'. Writing is a craft, remember. Most people don't know what a good book even is. They know what they enjoy but that's not the same thing. And they know that you're going to ask awkward questions and it won't just be done when they've finished reading.

It's a lot to ask. And you just can't blame people for not taking the time.

Why not? I love her, I'm absolutely not going to leave her over any of this. We have been together ten years and I've known where we stand on these things for about seven of those. Everything else works very well and we are happy together. Should that change then I'm open to reevaluating that but I'm not as young a man as once I was and I just don't care all that much about my sex life. When I was younger I cared more but really it's not a big deal anymore. And, perhaps most tellingly, if I was single I wouldn't be looking for someone who shares my kinks, I'd be looking for someone who is compatible with me in all the other ways; someone who I can sit all night talking to.To be honest, even if sex is a big deal both she and I would rather I have a discrete affair.

 

Maybe you're talking generally now and not to me but since you quoted me... I've repeatedly said I'm not asking for feedback.

 

While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I do think we're starting to broach a deeper question- what is the real value of friendship?

 

My point was, in so many words, that if you find it hurtful it's a problem with you not a problem with them.

It's both less and more than you think.

The lesser side is that, under everyday circumstances, people just want to live their own lives. I don't think it says anything particularly about the value or strength of friendship (or any relationship) that someone would rather play Fallout on their day off than come and poke your trainset. The circumstances matter here though. Your trainset will be there tomorrow, there's no reason why they have to interrupt their lives today specifically and they know that. But under exception circumstances that's something else entirely, that's a reason to just drop what you are doing and put your life on hold. It's not even selfishness for them to mostly not bother and it's totally mischaracterizing them to cast it in that light. They are just doing the things that they enjoy; asking that they stop that and come and do something you enjoy instead, that is selfish.

When a friend comes and knocks on your door every single day just to chat about nothing important when you are trying to work or hoover or host a swingers party you aren't going to feel very hospitable to them. But if a friend shows up in the middle of your sex party because they just got diagnosed with cancer then yeah, you put some clothes on, you lock the gimp away and you help them out (ideally in that order).

Because friendships are measured not by the every day. They are measured in extremis. Your real friends are the ones who are there when you need them. Not when you just would like them. They are the ones who show up uninvited when you're trying industriously to fall into a depressive spiral. But that doesn't mean they'll read your book. I have friends who would probably help me hide a body who won't read my books. Not because they aren't good friends to me; in fact I have far better friends than I deserve. But they just aren't into reading my work. They'll come get their ass kicked with me or bail me out or let me sleep on their sofa. But a book will never be in that kind of thing, it'll never be such a big deal or so important to you that they jump into life saving mode and plough through it.

 

Friends and Family usually make for bad beta readers (we have entire forum topics covering this). It's typically just not a very reliable source of unbiased criticism because they don't want to hurt your feelings.

Get the work in the hands of either a beta reader you don't know, a writers group, or a writing partner. If you are worried about it being boring, ask the beta readers specifically to let you know where they start to lose interest. This then will allow you to specifically diagnose segments rather than wringing your hands and wondering where in the book it went wrong.

 

You got off lightly. I gave my first manuscript to friends and family some years ago. One morning I was walking to work when I heard rustling in the bushes at the side of the road. Several people jumped out, grabbed me and dragged me into a nearby alley. The attackers were all wearing masks, but I knew who they were. Each one wielded a club of rolled up paper, and they hit with me it until I was curled in a ball on the ground, begging for mercy. I was beaten with my own manuscript! I went home that evening, bloody and bruised. We never spoke of it, but there was a lightness in the air that had not been their since the fateful day I asked them for critiques.

 

Must be really hardcore fans of em-dash, huh?

 

Happy to read and let you know my thoughts. I'm reading a scanner darkly at the moment, but after that I'm looking for something new to read.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree here.

 

I was very frustrated initially with family betas... my two kids wanted nothing to do with it, and my wife kept saying she didn't have time. I finally had an honest discussion with her, in fact before I resumed working on it after a 13 year hiatus, that I thought it was trash, that my kids thought it was dad's crazy project, and that she thought, from what little she had read, that it was overblown bloviation.

That cleared the air.... she agreed to be my proofreader, in exchange for me being willing to listen to her suggestions (that had been her side of that argument). We agreed and she has been enormously helpful... and I am now stuck proofing her work. My two kids and their spouses never did read any of the drafts (my son has two excuses, one who is now two years old, the other mid-life nursing school), my daughter's husband finished it after a slow start, and Katy is now captivated with the final version.

Take a look at what you are giving your betas. I don't expect a beta to catch all the SPaG I should have caught, and they are distractions to the story. Make sure it is reasonably clean before you hand it out, so they can concentrate on the story. Secondly, depending on your writing style, make sure it is relatively coherent and organized. Some first drafts are, others are not. Either of the above could be reasons for betas stalling out halfway through: it is just not ready for beta reading yet. If you find this is the case, be judicious about giving previous betas a corrected copy. The first may have soured them. You will find some outstanding betas here, JF, LG, thank you!

Above all, take pride in finishing it. Any finished work can always be reorganized and polished into something at least good. Something unfinished is just that... a WIP.

 

I really am sorry to hear that. They do sound as if they're out of order, actually. Damn.

 

I think this depends on what kind of relationship you have, and what you mean by 'interested'.

My wife and I have about 10% overlap in our interests at the best of times. She's super-churchy and I'm not religious at all. I'm athletic and she hates exercise. I'm outdoorsy but we went camping exactly once and it lasted 45 minutes until she discovered the toilet did not flush. I love sailing; she's afraid of the water.

She hasn't read a single thing that I have written, emails aside. But that doesn't mean she's not interested in my writing in general. She does want to know if I'm making progress, if it's selling, how the latest writing course or conference went. That's more than enough for me.

 

I also think it's important to have different expectations for alpha, beta, literary editors, and proofreaders.

Mostly, I keep the former two in my writing circles. The latter two could be any stranger, even a paid contractor/consultant.

The main problem with family and friends as alpha/beta readers is that they have too much baggage to be objectively critical. Either they want to pull punches to save your feelings, or they think some character is supposed to be about them specifically and react accordingly. It's just not worth it.

 

I have a very similar situation with my husband of over 20 years who's in a band. While I'm proud of all the hard work he puts into it and the successes he's had, and while I recognize that he's a very talented musician...I don't like his band's music at all. They play mostly heavy metal and punk, and it's just not my thing. I don't even go to his shows, because not only does the music give me a headache, they play a lot of skeevy places I wouldn't go into if you paid me. He's read much of what I've written, so sometimes I feel bad that I don't reciprocate, but its been working for us for a long time so I just go with it.

But I'm supportive in the sense that I'm interested in hearing about his shows, or new merchandise, or the songs his band working on. I don't begrudge him a a single dollar or moment that he spends making music, or complain when he plays out three weekends in a row. But be in the front row cheering him on? Not going to happen.

 

Karen and I have a good relationship now for mutual editing, as she has got the bug, doing a fantasy. Anbd we have both learnbed to listen to each other's critiques, and also to not get upset when the other refuses to accept them... it is after her (or my) story

 

I don't know. It doesn't see to backwards to me. We don't all like the same things.

If your best friend as into hunting/fishing/trapping and you were a vegan sporting a "save the wolves" bumper sticker on the back of your car, how likely would you be to stand out in the barn admiring the carcass of dead animals all because it was what your friend was interested in? That person might be the best hiking buddy in the world, you might share an interest in outdoor and wildlife photography, read the same books, like the same music, and be on the same side of the issue at political rallies when it comes to water quality and wilderness protection. But, that doesn't mean you also need to ooh and aah over dead animals if you are a vegan. I think a lot of people miss out on friendships simply because they expect other people to like all the same things they like and believe all the same things they believe.

Forcing your writing onto friends and family isn't going to make this like you more and they shouldn't be expected to like something just because you do.

I think @KevinMcCormack has the right attitude.