Thank you, this has been a standing observation of the story altogether. Case and point, the fire breathing aspect. Dragons would be able to breath fire at this point in evolution if they were ever able to in the past. It wouldn't de-evolve just because they're trying not to burn their houses down. In all the lore I've ever read, dragons always maintained control of their fire ability, they wouldn't just be letting it go while they slept. Also, if the dragons lived in catacombs and stone structure, like they would in any other book, then burning down the house wouldn't be a threat. I think the fire breathing is being omitted more because @rktho wants to have swords and sorcery as their primary means of combat...again, this is a more humanoid means of combat, maybe not magic so much since dragons can use magic in some lore, but swords have absolutely no place in this world/story. They just need to be made human and the problem is solved. Dragons do not strike me as being that deep into farming or husbandry. Seems they'd be quicker to roast sheep than raise them and sheer the wool. It's like asking a wolf to tend to a herd and not eat them. The thought derives very humorous images to mind as I picture dragons extracting silk and sheering sheep. It would make sense if they wore metal plate and chainmail. Dragons manning a forge does not offend my perceptions and preconceptions of their nature, it's fire based anyway. What does concern me is the fact that they would even wear clothes at all. I can see them forging armor, but it still makes me question. This isn't as bad though, armor makes sense at least. Lastly, there seems to be a lot of concern over a cloak impeding flight... I suppose it could, but honestly, I doubt a giant set of wings would care much about a cloak flapping about. It could be also designed to go around the wings and clasp together, making holes for said wings to go through, but honestly that's too involved. A cloak wouldn't hinder a dragon from flying, not at all, it would just find a place to settle on their back and flap in between. Even for a dragon the size of a human, their wings would need to be enormous for them to fly; I don't think this has been considered either. A reader who picked this book up would put it back real quick, there's too many holes and nonsensical world building choices. I can make some suggestions as to what I would do, however, if I was dead set on having dragons as MCs.
The dragons in my book believe they got their fire from the sun. I'm not at all surprised you also came up with the idea--it's so obviously usable for dragons! A six inch stream might be fine for use in close combat, but personally I'd make it closer to 1-2 feet. A quick burst of flame, such as in a fireball, wouldn't set much on fire unless there's a lot of dry material around. Green wood, leaves, and grass are hard to light; it's the dry stuff you gotta watch out for. I wouldn't worry about the dragons not being able to control their fire--just say that they can! If you really want to you can say that a very few dragons a born/hatched with a disability to control it (I wouldn't do this, or at least mention it in the book, unless it adds to the plot). You can even invent a drink or injection that prevents the necessary chemicals or whatever from forming, so that a dragon temporarily loses the ability (think: prisoners in jail and prisoners of war etc.). As for clothes . . . if you want to use wool and silk, I wouldn't find it at all odd. After all, these beings are as intelligent as us, right? It'd only be natural if fashion became a part of their culture and as such, some dragons found it profitable to raise sheep/silkworms. They probably farm animals anyway, so it wouldn't be too much of a leap to say they found a use for that waste material. Heck, it might even have been the farmers who invented clothing fashion for the purpose of making more money! If you want items other than wool and silk, you can invent your own or say they make a chemical that fire retards the material. BayView is absolutely correct; you can just add mountains (assuming it works with the plot), but if you don't want to, just have them live in underground dens. They'd be smaller, naturally, but there are a ton of animals who live in them so why not dragons?
Do you read or watch a lot of dragon fantasy? Rarely, if ever, are the wings technically large enough to hold the dragon aloft, and even less often are they long enough to carry the weight of a horse or human. That is one aspect only the pickiest or least exposed reader will care about, IMO. I don't understand why so many people in this thread is against anything these dragons do being human-like. Why must dragons always live in caves and rocks? Why can't they farm or do husbandry? Why can't they wear decorative clothes? The dragons in THIS book are bipedal with human intelligence and dexterity, without claws on their hands to get in the way. They have all the abilities we do, so why couldn't they discover that raising animals is easier, more practical, and more sustainable than simply hunting and hoping they can find enough meat to feed the city? And if they only hunted their food and limited their interests to stone and metal work, what in the world would the city people do for a living? If they eat anything other than meat (even cats enjoy a little grass every now and then), those city folk would be hard pressed to forage some fruits and greens. Why wouldn't some dragon have discovered that by growing those fruits and greens, he can make a ton of money? The whole point of fantasy is to create whatever world and creatures we want to. Yes, rktho is struggling with making these dragons dragon enough, but that doesn't mean he has to completely eradicate everything human about them. Change a few hobbies, make the buildings more wing friendly, and get rid of the need for sunglasses--it only takes a few changes to make a big difference if they're played in the story often enough (I'm not saying those are the only changes to make; I just put them out there as random examples). I just can't wrap my head around this preconceived notion of dragons when these ones are so vastly different than the quadrupeds. ETA: Sorry for the rant--I actually wasn't directing it specifically at you, Dr.Meow. I just found myself more and more dumbfounded and found myself bursting to say something.
Would fire even have combat potential in a dragon world? If dragons all lived in communities they would have doubtlessly evolved fire-proof scales. I can''t see dragons wearing woolen clothes either. Any dragon could potentially burn off and ruin someone else's clothes with a single breath. I could buy it if these dragons were a very civilized society, but who wants cordial, tea-drinking dragons?
Humans can still get hurt with fingernails, hippos can still kill each other with their teeth, and deer can still be killed by wolves. Some of the dragons might have more fire retardant scales, but I don't think it's necessary to make them all fire proof. Every dragon in every story I've ever read can still be injured or killed by fire.
Actually, they do have claws on their fingers. Well, they lack certain human abilities, such as snapping. (You need fingertips and they have pointed claws instead.) And they aren't the only bipedal dragons in my book. There are wyverns where their arms and wings are combined, and raptorlike dragons that have beaks and frills, and icedragons that are adapted to a colder environment. They all have hands. I would think even the wyverns could use a sword if they made one. And not all dragons in lore are quadrupedal. That's why I only have one quadrupedal dragon species. (I also have one that's semi-sextupedal.)
I've read stories where they can't, but usually that ends up with their hides being used for human clothes to protect against fire. Like in Harry Potter, they wear dragon skin gloves. In How To Train Your Dragon 2, Drago Bloodfist uses a dragonskin cape as a shield.
Yes, fantasy does give us the ability to create worlds, but it also demands that there be set rules to them. 95% of the people who read about dragons herding sheep are going to laugh and wonder how such a book made it out of the children's section. Not being rude about it, just being realistic. I suppose he could take a Xanth approach and make it more comical and humorous, but from what I can tell he wants something a bit more serious than that. You can do whatever you want, but there's no defeating the preconceptions and desires of the reader, that's just not possible. Dragons have been set in stone, except for some minor leeway on certain things. You can't completely reinvent their nature and still call them dragons. He could come up with an entirely different name for them perhaps, and not make them appear as dragonesque, now that would work. Your audience is ultimately in charge, and while the author has a lot of room to create, and I do mean a lot, they are also bound to the reader at some point. Making it believable to them is key, and if they don't believe it or care for it...that's the final say in the matter. How do I know what the reader wants, you ask? Because I've been a fantasy fan for quite some time, and I've also studied the art of storytelling and world-crafting. There's also the matter of targeted audience, rules of marketing, and the fantasy community's impression to take into consideration as well. I'm just saying this world would not fly in a fantasy group. Doesn't mean he can't write it for himself and do as he wants, but the fact that rktho's posting threads about it means he'd like for people to read and appreciate it, other than himself. Of course, the fact that he's posting full chapters to the forum either means he intends to self-publish, or simply put the book up for free and not seek a publisher. Publishers won't take work that has been posted in majority to a forum.
I thought I'd read another post from you that said they didn't have claws. My bad. Never read Harry Potter, and I'd completely forgotten about HTTYD. Again, my bad! My point is still the same, though: it's not unreasonable to make dragons harmed by fire. I guess I just think differently than most, then. I can picture a humanoid dragon race herding sheep without trouble. I tend to think, "Why not?" I still stand by my opinions (except now that I know they're clawed, I don't see them doing detailed work unless they can make special tools to get around that issue. Those claws would get in the way more than long fingernails, as they're larger and less flexible.), but I'll conceded that I'm in the minority here. This kind of reminds me of the "What is an orc?" thread. That's an interesting thread to read, and it really shows how differently people think about stuff like this! I wouldn't mind reading a thread like that about every fey creature . . .
It's been talked about almost as much as whether or not we should use italics for thoughts. While I agree with most of your sentiments throughout this thread, I think you're underestimating the fidelity of the fantasy community. There are tons of books out there that people read which don't make a lot of sense. The Dragonlance universe is HUGE, SPRAWLING and of course has tons of nonsensical plot holes. But that series was written for something like thirty years by numerous authors. The fans bought the plot holes. I think there's a little more leeway in fantasy than any other genre. So if someone is bent on these nonsensical things, fantasy is probably the right genre.
I actually pictured them fencing off a pasture and just dropping food in. Shearing might not occur to them. They might just skin the sheep.
Dragons in cities and/or as the majority of the characters have been done before, you realize, right?
Well there's a couple threads about it actually, probably just figured you knew that I suppose? Personally I thought this was more something you'd self publish or had some other plan for other than finding a publisher. There's a reason you don't see any novels, intended to be traditionally publish, posted on the forum anywhere. It's probably fine if you redesigned your story a bit and changed a bunch of stuff, but it's had a lot of damage done with the three or four chapters you have posted already. Once posted, it doesn't ever get removed, it's sorta permanent, and lying to the publisher will have your contract voided if they ever find it (which they will, and probably before they even consider publishing it).
You'd be surprised what people can think of when they have something to gain. You don't have to add it, of course, but if you want to I don't see why not (though apparently I'm in the minority, at least on this forum).
I guess I have to concede that point. Still reeks of Xanthian style writing, but I also love Xanth, so... Maybe I'm old-fashioned, or maybe too caught up in realistic fantasy, but for me I either need it to be comical, or serious. If it's taken seriously, then the plot holes need to be plugged, and anything nonsensical needs to be reworked. Elder Scrolls is one of my favorite fantasy worlds of all time, and while it does have a couple questionable issues here and there, they also make sure to write in a canonical explanation for it that abides by some sort of law, then make it history rather than try to cover it or just leave it be. All my favorite fantasy worlds do the same, and personally I couldn't fall in love with a world that didn't. Maybe just me.
Ah, but I have a cover for plotholes-- the Rishnaran. That said, I still want it to be tight. That's why I'm here. The Rishnaran doesn't like plotholes he doesn't create intentionally.
I actually have nothing wrong with dragons in clothes or cities or involved in animal husbandry My problem is that all those things are primarily depicted in human terms. If he can evoke imagery of how it evolved and works uniquely for dragons, then everything is okay. All these things should have obvious distinctions that irrefutably distinguish it as dragonesque. But just having dragons wearing clothes and wielding swords and walking though cities and sleeping in taverns just comes off so—human. There doesn't seem to be any distinction in how these came about, the logical fundamental differences in structure & performance, and so on. If a dragon "tavern" looks and runs nearly exactly like a human tavern, that's the problem. Like I just don't buy dragons wearing hats. And yet I can accept dragons having some sort of head covering reminiscent of a hat, if the initial function it serves seems reasonable to dragons' needs at some point in their history. But if you write them wearing a fedora or beret or ten gallon cowboy hat or whatever else, I'm going to laugh, find it ridiculous, and probably put the book down. Same of donning formal military uniform dress or carrying around satchels. Right now it all just comes across that he has casually tossed "dragons" into strictly human communities, cultures, behaviours, and so forth. The fact that they are humanoid in form only serves to reinforce the impression they are human dressed in dragon skins. As the story has been depicted thus far, if he never said they were dragons I honestly would just take this as a human fantasy story with zero issue. Full disclosure: I freaking love dragons. And not just Western/European dragons popular in fantasy. Eastern dragons of Japan & China & Korea, etc. Even the similar mythical creatures of the Americas. If a story says it has wyverns or basilisks or guivre or ryu or ihuaivulu, you can bet your ass I'm immediately keen to read it without additional qualifiers. Because dragons. So I'm not saying this as a dragon/fantasy hater. I love dragons. I love dragons with human qualities. I love dragons as a superior or more evolved creature than man. I love dragons as deities. I love dragons as base beasts or fearsome monsters. I just freaking love dragons. So when I say you're dragons don't feel like dragons—or that the cities & communities & clothes & weaponry all feel distinctly human, by humans, for humans—I'm saying that as someone who craves kickass dragon stories.
My sentiment exactly, you put it in words that I've been struggling to find. Bravo! Yes, if they felt like dragons, and had reasons for the things they did and a unique twist on how to do them, that would solve it. I still say this is a tall order to fill, especially for one person to come up with an entire culture based on creatures that are nothing like humans. It will threaten to still become comical, to me at least, but if done correctly it will simply come off as levity between more serious events, because you have to take dragons seriously, they demand it by nature. I believe just about anyone would get behind this if done properly, and what you've described here is very much the problem, and the solution. I also like dragons as well, I think most, if not all, fantasy lovers do. Dragons are awesome...always.
This isn't technically writing advice, but I think it will help with world building. I encourage anyone writing about dragons to go play, or look at, the video game Endless Legend. It's a strategy game, and you play as the leader of different factions, one of which are dragons. The dragons in Endless Legend are degrading from their pure dragon bloodline, like devolving into just lizards, for unknown reasons. A lot of the quests, missions, and objectives are based around discovering why this is happening, as well as dealing with the political, and economic effects of loosing their sentience. For instance, thousands of dragonlings are born without wings, and do not mature beyond a few meters tall, when their parents and forebears are full fledged, building-sized dragons. So, you as a leader have to build special hatcheries, and train special caretakers to deal with these newborns, all while finding a use for these sub-dragons in your society. Different pure-dragon lords wake up slowly, and when they arrive they make demands based on their interpretation of the crisis. Some are appalled by what the call a 'disease', while others see it as a sign of something to come. All the while, YOU have to figure out how to make everyone get along, and protect your people. What's also interesting is the game's depiction of dragon culture. All dragons wear clothes, but their outfits are designed to allow them to function as dragons. Warriors will have armor, but no pants or hats, airborne dragons will be straight naked to make flying easier, while diplomats will be wearing full, elegant, royal regalia, since they are meeting with other races. Dragon buildings are sometimes clay and stone, with larger structures solid onyx towers with roosts and eeries. It's all really well done, and I think it shows that with enough effort you can make any sort of idea, or 'look', work for you.
You're going to love it in the third book when one of my characters named Digdit visits Sharanghar (seen on my map.) The Dragans are supposed to be Asian type dragons with a hint of western in them. I'd love help fleshing them out. Right now, I'm imagining them as golden, serpentine creatures with six legs and no wings. Feathers are of course a must, but they'd also have scales, at least the way I'm currently envisioning them. I need to get them down to something concrete. But then again they don't make an appearance until the third book, so there's that.
Okay, here's a problem we can solve: how to carry things in flight. I would imagine this: They travel lightly, mostly with coins so they can buy or rent (probably the latter if it's not food) items they might need, instead of carrying them. They'd have to be fastened very securely so they wouldn't fall off. I would imagine perhaps a satchel tied to their bodies. I could also envision them carrying large objects (the sheep imagery gave me the idea) using both their hands and talons to grasp the object. Evolutionary, there might be a reason to give them the ability to grip such objects for extended periods of time without accidentally dropping them. Just for the sake of challenge, let's say one dragon needs to carry a tent. How would a dragon (built like my avatar) fly a tent to their destination? Handwise, they have four fingers and a thumb like humans, but their fingers are proportionally longer and they have claws instead of fingertips. Footwise, they have talons like a bird, with claws on their toes that curve. (The tips of the claws touch the ground when they walk, as well as the soles of their feet. Their toes do not.) They have three in the front and one in the back. (These are very good for gripping large objects, like deer or sheep.) Also, these dragons are twelve feet tall.
