Making dragons relatable but not human?

Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by rktho, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    Idea: torchpikes. Like spears/lances/staffs, but with a torch at the top so the point is on fire. You know the little cage on a metal torch where the fire burns? There'd be one of those on a long stick, and then a rounded spearhead would come up from the center through the flames, around where the fuel would be. The question is, how to keep the fuel from falling out if for whatever reason it got turned downward?
     
  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I'm confused. Why would creatures that can create fire have to carry their fire using tools?

    Making a dragon have to use fuel and tools to create fire takes much of the joy and mystique out of using dragon characters.
     
  3. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    It's for intimidation purposes. A spear is intimidating, but more so if it's on fire. And the fire in the torch represents the fire in the dragon.
    Fuel is just to keep it burning. Of course they would light the torches themselves.
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Why not use the fire in the dragon to represent the fire in the dragon?
     
  5. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    Because that is a lot of firebreathing and you would get pretty exhausted breathing fire for hours while you stand guard.
     
  6. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Why would you keep breathing fire while standing guard? Guards don't spend their entire guard shift swinging and slashing with their swords. (Also, you're just assuming that fire breathing is tiring; you have the power to decide that it's not.)

    Humans use tools and weapons because humans are soft squishy useless things in a fight. Humans are basically baked potatoes with brains and opposable thumbs.

    If a creature has fire breath, and claws, and a big lashing tail, why does that creature need to use tools? OK, maybe a spear would be longer and pointier than a claw, but in that case why not just use the spear? A dragon breathing out an inferno and coming at you full tilt with a shining piece of steel that's somewhere inside that inferno but you can't quite even see it to dodge it is FAR scarier than a dragon aiming a big steel birthday candle at you, even if the steel part of the birthday candle is just as big and pointy as the steel in the inferno scenario.
     
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  7. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    Okay, so maybe I should drop it, but I mean, these are the palace guards, so they should be slightly more armed than the average dragon, right? And it's just as much for ceremony as it is intimidation. They aren't really going to be swinging it unless they have to. It's like, these guys are carrying long torches to illuminate the corridor. But those torches are also spears, so I wouldn't mess with them.
     
  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    You're looking at this from a human point of view, where being dangerous is all about weapons and armor because, again, baked potatoes.

    In a dragon world, being dangerous could very well be about how big you are and how much fire you can breathe. A dragon would know that a palace guard could out-inferno four ordinary dragons.

    This is, again part of making the dragons different from humans. You're persisting in making them just the same as humans.
     
  9. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    Well, I mean, these dragons are the same species.
     
  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Humans are the same species, but some are bigger and more powerful than others. Our solders mostly just need to be big and powerful enough, and we use weapons and armor to make them superior to the average person. I'm suggesting that your high-level dragon warriors may be very powerful examples of their species.

    Edited to add: To make it clear, I'm saying that some humans are bigger and powerful than others. That is likely to also be true of dragons, but you could make the variability in dragons larger.

    Humans use weapons and armor to differentiate soldiers from civilians. I'm suggesting that you NOT make this the primary way that dragon soldiers are differentiated from civilians.

    I'm especially suggesting that you refrain from eliminating one of the most interesting aspects of dragons--the fire. When you take the fire out of the dragon and put it in a spear, the dragon has no need to still be a dragon. I don't want to see dragons fighting with spears, I want to see them fighting with fire.
     
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  11. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    Fair point.
     
  12. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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  13. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    That's not really what I'm going for. There are already guards circling the palace. These guys just open the door or tell you can't come into the throne room. And if you put up a fight, they'll put up a bigger one.
     
  14. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Nevertheless, I believe that a dragon fighting should be a dragon fighting, rather than a human fighting.
     
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  15. Dr.Meow

    Dr.Meow Contributor Contributor

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    @ChickenFreak makes a good point though, unless they had weapons to enhance their capabilities during a fight, then there's really nothing they could create that would be more devastating than two dragons battling it out claw to claw and tooth to tooth. Having some sort of enhancement might be one thing, but having swords and spears does seem a bit strange. Something could be invented here that would be way more interesting.

    Side note: At some point it is good to get to writing though. I just finished my second chapter and am starting the third one of my novel. Woohoo!
     
  16. Elven Candy

    Elven Candy Pay no attention to the foot in my mouth Contributor

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    Personally, I like imagining these large beasts of a castle guard wielding intimidating spears or halberds. Not the basic pointy stick kind, mind you, but intimidating ones (google "fantasy spear" and you'll get some ideas). No, that image of the dragon wouldn't be scarier if he was just wielding a spear, but imagine it being a two-legged dragon wielding a spear and breathing fire, and that makes a huge difference.

    This thread (knife vs sword):
    https://www.writingforums.org/threads/knife-vs-sword.150463/
    Gives us a great reason for why these dragons might have weapons on top of their fire-breathing and claws: reach. Even with scaly skin, would you rather go after another dragon with your claws, or with a longer "claw?" That spear/sword/knife acts like a longer claw. It might not be as fast as just striking with your claw, but it's got reach. And what if their claws aren't strong enough to cut through scales easily, but the metal weapon is? That'd be a great reason to have a weapon.

    Frankly, I don't find fire-breathing very intimidating on its own, and if I read a book where the guards relied only on their claws, teeth, and fire, but were two-legged and capable of making weapons, I'd be like, "This is so stupid."
     
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  17. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    True.
     
  18. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    Exactly.

    Also, swords are kind of important to the series' plot.
     
  19. Elven Candy

    Elven Candy Pay no attention to the foot in my mouth Contributor

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    Swords are cool, and I'm not biased at all.

    ETA: I do agree with Chickenfreak that you need to ditch the flaming spear, though. If they just look like giant torches it doesn't image well in my head. Once it doesn't look like a spear anymore it just doesn't look intimidating, especially if there's a cage around the pointy tip.

    If you want the guards to have a greater reach with their fire, you could give them a flask of something they can drink/spew with their fire to increase its reach and intensity. Basically take the example from real life "fire-breathers" and up it a notch or ten. How to make the liquid could be a castle secret.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
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  20. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    I mean, I could see dragons using swords, depending on their intelligence. It'd be like armor but it's a weapon instead of a defense. (Don't tell me you've never heard of dragon armor before, guys.)
     
  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I see armor just fine. I absolutely can't see a dragon using a sword. But it doesn't strike me as a deep and fundamental flaw, like a dragon using a flaming weapon instead of their own internal flame does.
     
  22. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Re how the dragons could control the fire breathing in their sleep: I think you're seeing it as like plain breathing. Think of it as being like singing or whistling. You do those things with your breathing apparatus (plus other things) but they're totally voluntary.
     
  23. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    Yes, but people talk in their sleep sometimes.
     
  24. rktho

    rktho Contributor Contributor

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    I see.
     
  25. Infel

    Infel Contributor Contributor

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    Most of these suggestions assume that you want to make your dragons more... umm, draconic? I think you mentioned before that someone said "Oh your dragons are just humans in dragon skins."

    But if that's what you want, then that's fine. If you want to write a book about humans-but-they're-dragons, then that's fine! You can make them human enough to be relateable (i.e. they sit down for a drink after a long day at the local pub), but you can satirize the entire situation (the pub is eight stories tall and has a complementary sheep chained to each table instead of a bread basket). You could basically have a world that's essentially: lol what if humans were dragons instead of monkeys, wouldn't that be cool?

    And the entertainment factor would be the subtle nuances of daily life that were WILDLY different because humans were, instead, dragons.

    I like to imagine a dragon rustling through a coin purse, trying to pick out a few silver coins, and inside the purse is like a dragon tampon which is just solid tungsten (6000+ degree melting point.).
     
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