OK, an example: James was late. Very, very late, for the most important appointment of his career. He drove the BMW, its alloy wheels glinting, well over the speed limit, keeping his eyes out for police. The sun on the wheels flashed, bright and then dark, as the shadows of the other cars fell on them. Would he make it? Red light--dammit! He waited, peering ahead to judge the traffic. The sun came out from behind the clouds and cast a ray on the gleaming curvature of his wheels. The light turned green, and James released a breath, moving forward with the line of cars. Finally! But the Honda ahead of him stopped, and the light turned red again. James' wheels turned slowly to a gleaming stop. "Dammit!" James pounded on the steering wheel so hard that the alloy wheels vibrated. "Forget it. Forget it. I'm getting a cab." He shoved the gearshift to Park and got out, the shadow of his swinging coat passing over the gleaming alloy wheels, and marched away, leaving the car, wheels shining orbs in the morning sun, abandoned on the road. See any problem at all with this?
But if its written in omniscient 3rd then its not her point of view - its the point ofview of the viewer so you describe her actions. As i said with the parallel of Pretty Woman (where the focus is her legs,or 44 inches of pleasure as she describes them to Geres character) she wakes, she swings her long legs out of bed (long shot), she dresses she put on her long leather boots (long shot) and she leaves the apartment to a back shot of her legs walking down the stairs Now thats obviously not how it would be wise to describe every female character, but Roberts' character is a hooker , and the focus on her legs/figure is plot related as its what draws Gere's characters eye, and is later again highlighted when he's changed her manner of dress to a high class escort Of course the whole thing is sexist tripe and doubtless offensive to feminists everywhere but it was also very very succesful, and regardless of the rights and wrongs of the plot if you were writing that plot it would be appropriate to focus on her legs ... or on her breasts if that was her main attribute
Spoiler: My answer We're clearly in some flavor of 3rd limited. Close, deep, whatever. Limited. Every mention of the too-often mentioned wheels is a POV break. James doesn't see or feel them because he's either in the car or walking away from it. We have a mixed and confusing POV because of intense narrative intrusion and alloy wheel fetish.
That's kind of the point of the Male Gaze idea, though - that it deliberately puts the focus on the sexualized aspects of the character. Arguing that there's no problem with writing with the male gaze by using a movie scene that was shot with a male gaze doesn't really work, I don't think.
Oh okay I get it. Combined with @Wreybies explaination this makes sense to me. Thank you! Though to ensure. The problem is that it shifting to the cars perspective, as opposed to talking about the car from the James perspective. Like James was late. Very, very late, for the most important date(the alice in wonderland is strong within me,). He drove "his" BMV much faster than the speed limit; the alloy wheels glinting the whole way. Point being the word the opposed to the word his?
Dan, guess I almost got it. lol So, damn. I was tempted to argue, that if it was his car maybe he was aware of it just as a fact or assumed it, but I suppose the point is it is given as a currently tactile detail that is unknown to him. Learning is fun!
well its certainly an example of a story written where male gaze was used successfully. I suppose what i'm saying in that regard is that male gaze is a thing in real life, and typifies how a lot of men think about women. Therefore if you are either writing with those men as your audience (as with pretty woman) or writing how a male character sees a female one then writing it in a male gaze way is valid. Equally if you are writing about a male character who's physical attributes are plot important then there is no problem with applying female gaze or gay male gaze if it work for your plot and characters That's not to say that I endorse male gaze a good thing per se, or an effective way to charecterise every female character, but imo its justified in some instances (obviously not to the exagerated extent of the OP)
writing includes screen writing though, plus its something most people have heard of. If i used say the example of how Heinlien's character and narrator 'Manuel o kelly davis' thinks about 'wyoming knot' in 'the moon is a harsh mistress' the argument would be the same but less clear to anyone who doesn't happen to have read it
But if we were pointing out examples of times when racism was used successfully as a way to sell movies, would the conclusion then be that it's "valid" to write in a racist way? (Like, for example, the many examples of the Magical Negro in successful movies... yes, it's a common trope, and that's why people may spoof it, but that doesn't mean it's something we should feel good about perpetuating...)
And it's not just that these wheels are outside of James's rational perception. Even if @ChickenFreak wrote this in a way that makes James actually see these wheels - reflected in shop windows as he passes by, in the sideview mirror of his car, flashing against the equally chromium bright wheels of another car passing by - these wheels have been fetishized. James is late to the most important meeting of his life. Why in the world all this mention about wheels? What do they have to do with the character we are engaging. Sure, maybe a mention is fine, but at this level, this many times? The same holds for the bewbs that started this conversation. Yes, bewbs exist and it would be stupid for us to pretend they don't, but everything in its place, so to speak.
I dunno... it almost sounds like the story's protagonist(s) are in fact said breasts.... I suppose the author would have to write this in 3rd person omniscient in order to cover all bases, so to speak. Wait, perhaps 3rd person limited, as neither breast knows what the other is thinking, and definitely has a different perspective... hmmm
But women were also in the audience of Pretty Woman. Women are part of the audience for almost everything. Writing from another character's POV, a fairly intensely breast-focused character, is IMO the only occasion when anything like the beginning initial sample would work.
From the British comedy series Coupling: Steve Taylor: There are times I worry about the way you see women. Jeff: I see women as people in their own right. Patrick Maitland: In many ways, they *are*. Steve Taylor: You see women as transport for breasts! Jeff: Hey, I can see past breasts now, Steve. I need more than that. Steve Taylor: Yeah, I can tell. Jeff: I need breasts with brains. I don't mean *individual* brains, obviously. Besides, you give breasts the power of independent thought, and the next thing is, they don't get on. There's a clash of personalities. (a little later) [trying to come up with title for a movie about breasts that have brains] Patrick Maitland: The Girl With Two Brains. Steve Taylor: Three brains, Patrick. Patrick Maitland: Oh, yeah. I forgot about that one. (a little later or possibly another episode) Steve Taylor: In the event of a mind ray, stand next to Patrick. Jeff: Yeah, but we're all the same as Patrick. See, women think we're normal, like them, 'cause we talk to them like normal people, you know, we say, "Hello, how are you. Haven't seen you in this place before. What kind of music do you like?" But all the time in our brains, we've got the word "breasts" on a loop. If we ever lost control for a second, we'd all start shouting "Breasts! Breasts! Breasts! Breasts!"
I'm guessing there's a jokeiness here, but I can't help responding: She wouldn't be visualizing them as seen from a place where she is not. Since a woman's breasts are, well, attached, it's rather difficult to see them head on. Cassandra woke to the rays of the sun cascading through the slats in her blinds. As always, she tilted her chin downward, awkwardly, to check on breasts. She sighed in relief to see the pale domes still in place. But were they still attached? She rotated her head to work out the kink in her neck, then peered down again as she stretched her arms. Seeing the breasts move in concert with the arms, but not fall off, was another relief. Finally, she risked sitting up, and received full proof of their continued adherance--they moved with her! Woo! She bent slightly and lifted one, then the other, to confirm that the nipples, too, were still attached and still roughly symmetrical. OK, next: Did she still have feet? She bent to pull at the blanket...
That was absolutely delightful. On a mildly related note: I have actually had bad dreams in the past that my willy came off. In these dreams there's always a vague suggestion that somehow it's modular but that it can only be away from the body for so long before it won't reattach. These dreams are usually about that time limit being breached.
I've had dreams where I had a willy... And I was naked, surrounded by people looking at me. It was terrible. lol
Holy shit you're a paper nautilus (they have a detachable penis which is some variants swims off in search of a mate on its own. In others it breaks off after mating an embeds itself to stop other males mating with its chosen partner)
It would certainly be valid to write a racist character ... that isn't the same thing as saying the author agrees with their views (likewise I doubt the producers of pretty woman intended to promote prostitution as a good way to meet millionaires)
Yikes, you wake up and it's twice as big as it was the night before! The thread, that is. Bit of a late hit, but something I don't think anyone mentioned in the whole "objectively beautiful" subsection of this is that female breasts are more inherently attractive than the toolkits we carry around below the belt. While eating at the Y is an acquired taste (and one that not everyone acquires even if they are enthusiastically hetero/homosexual), millions of years of evolution have ingrained in all of us a desire for the boob as a source of food. Even if a child is primarily bottle-fed, breasts are hardwired into our subconscious as a Good Thing.
The sun poured through the slatted blinds its warmth carressing Cassandra's breasts, but she didn't feel this, because she never thought of her breasts at all, or was even aware of them. Lifting her arms she stretched and felt a weight pulling on her arms as she did so, "my god what were are fleshy pink things weighing down my torso ?" she thought "I've never thought about these things at all and I'm not starting now" Rising from her bed she donned a shapeless floor length shift that completely hid the offending items from view "I'm sure Big Dave and Mick the Knife at the Pussy Kat club won't mind if I dress like this" she told herself "after all they can't possibly be interested in my body from a man's point of view"
But you keep arguing that we're talking about third person omniscient point of view. Which would mean, in the racist argument, that the narrative voice, not the character, would be racist. The voice of the book would be racist.
