My thoughts and opinions on constructive criticism

Yesterday, I submitted on outline of an OC of mine to r/fantasywritters. The vast majority of the feedback I received was very helpful and constructive, though it bruised my fragile ego. Nevertheless, there was one comment that rubbed me off the wrong way.

The response said something on the lines of that my character was an “overdone edgelord that could be used for comedy”, and then added “Nope, not interested, wouldn't read.” Admittedly, my character was rife with the type of “edginess” that you might find in a teenage fanfic. And of course, everyone is entitled to share their opinions and tastes.

What particularly annoyed me with the comment though, is that it really didn’t offer me anything of value. All I could get out of it, was that the commenter had a disdain for my character. As they didn't specify what exactly made my OC a "boring edgelord", I couldn't take anything to improve him. If it was a review of a published work of mine in a webstore (like Amazon and Goodreads), I wouldn’t have any problems with it. As these reviews are assisting potential customers on whatever a potential product is worth their consumption.

However, I was posting in a critique forum, where inspiring amateurs look for assistance in honing their craft. Comments like “your story is ripping off [insert popular franchise]” or “10/10 shitpost” without actually bothering to elaborate on the issues, are just lazy and thoughtless. Telling someone that their work is abysmal, isn’t teaching them how to improve.

Critiques should be based on pointing out flaws, and then expressing opinions on how they could be fixed. Examples include something on the lines of “hey, I don’t think your protagonist should cheat on their significant other in that scene. It really doesn’t reflect well on their personality, and it may taint the reader’s ability to root for them. Perhaps you could allow them be tempted, but not succumb to their desires. That might make for some interesting internal conflict.” Yeah I know it's a terrible example, but that was the first thing that popped into my head.

Not to mention and generally speaking, their responses are built upon “buzz words” (if that is the right term to use in this context) that are very subjective and dependent upon a speaker(s)’ personal opinion. What one person enjoys is guaranteed to be detested by another. As I mentioned in a previous paragraph, me saying “the Conjuring is a terrible movie” isn’t informing anyone of its actual quality. It's only vaguely expressing what my thoughts were on the film, and even that isn't explaining why I formed such thoughts towards it.

Granted, the comment itself wasn’t that salacious and I’ve received far more demeaning responses in my old reddit account. To me, it was just an overly mediocre and somewhat insulting reply, whose main talking points were better expressed by the other commenters in the thread. It simply reminded me of problems I’ve previously had with critique subreddits.

Too often, these subs and similar critique forums are populated by users that don’t have any real interest in writing tutoring. An overly vocal minority are just trying to follow the “roasting trend” popular on reddit, karma farm from tearing down “cringy fanfics”, and showcasing their intellectual superiority to faceless online randos. These types of users have been known to sour my experiences with these critique subs at times, though I’ve received very good feedback from them as well. Also, I wish users could learn the difference between a review and a critique.

 

That is the problem with social media in general, the instant consumption with no thought or substance required. Thankfully forums like this one are not populated as much by trolls and repeat abusers will be banned.

The problem with social media is that when an argument or discussion breaks out, people tend to vote with their feels, and often people that have only provided thinly veiled virtue signalling think they've made a compelling argument when they haven't responded to a single point made. It's frustrating, which is why I refrain from comments often on the larger social media sites. Also, I don't want to say the wrong thing, get it taken out of context and be in danger of getting 'canceled'.

 

Yeah, the person who commented wasn't giving actual critique, but ironically just wanted to be an edgelord himself. Maybe your character made him envious and he had to try to out-edgelord him?

 

This reminds me of the times I've foolishly posted excerpts on 4chan's /lit/ out of sheer curiosity. That place is the most vile and toxic "community" on the internet. It's so disgustingly extreme that "kill yourself" is basically code for "I didn't like this." Reddit is just a less hateful version of 4chan. Stick with forums like this one.

 

To me, it was just an overly mediocre and somewhat insulting reply, whose main talking points were better expressed by other commenters.

Having critiqued the critique, you can now discard it and move on to more useful commentary.

 

Welcome to the internet...

 

I usually brush off critiques that don't really offer a lot. Insults don't irk me anymore. It can get annoying on certain sites like Scribophile which when your work is on the main page (spotlight) the first three critiques you get will boot you off the line up. And my work seems to attract a lot of newbies some of which only want the points (so people will look at their work) so you can wind up with a lot of praise - this is amazing! or the bare minimum said to get the points. And boom I'm off the main page before I can attract a good critiquer.

That's why I tend to spread my work out across a few writing sites and to also have an inkling of what's wrong with it already. There's only one site I've come across that can be brutal - Critique Circle - but only in the Hook section - where they judge your first page, and I believe that's because it's totally anonymous. I love putting my first pages through there just to develop a thicker skin - I've had my voice mocked, my grammar, I've been lectured and laughed at and through it all they did manage to point out some useful things.

 

The other way to look at this. Interesting story line, great characters, looks like it would be a great read and a cool story. Probably the most encouraging things you could say to any writer. At the same time as a reader we make decisions in a split second about what we chose to read or skip over. You have but one brief moment to catch and hold a reader. What you got- while it could have been sugar coated with PC writer bullshit, was an honest answer, the one true gem of any critique. I would say it is a great time to look at your character, he is after all yours and examine if there is some truth to what was written. There is nothing in stone that says you can't change or make your character into anything you want to make them more interesting. I look at it this way, how many trashy romance novels were sold because of the beauty in the torn dress, reaching out to the muscular man without a shirt to save her from tragedy. The cover sold the book, cause you are interested in the two characters and what happens next, in a split second you at least decided to read the back cover. Your book cover got rejected, no big deal, change it.

 

okay so
you're never, never going to write a story or a character that everyone likes. you never will. but sometimes someone who isn't your audience really feels the need to let you know that they're not your audience. sometimes i think that it's because they want to control art so that only things they like get made.

yeah, heck that. extra hair riffling breeze for protagonist anti-hero character. look pensive, my good man. you've earned it.

 

You said it yourself. These sites are full of armature writers. It's quite possible they don't know any better than you what's really wrong with something or how to fix it. And no one owes you free writing lessons. I'm not sure if anyone on those sites is qualified or has the knowledge to teach you anything and I certainly wouldn't put so much weight into any response you get from people you know nothing about.

You said, "Critiques should be based on pointing out flaws, and then expressing opinions on how they could be fixed." But I have to say I completely disagree with this. You are putting your work out there and asking people for their opinions. You really can't set the rules for critiques to be given the way you want. I don't post my unpublished writing anywhere online, but I have done swaps with people I've met via the forum. By the time I'm asking for a critique on my writing it is the best I can make it. I don't know if anything can actually be flawless, but I think it's a good thing to feel that way about something before asking for beta readers or critiques. Sure, my early readers might have issues with something, but I would never expect them to have the solutions.

Maybe I'm not the best person to answer in this thread because I don't participate in these things myself, though, I have done many workshops and received my fair share of critiques and feedback. At the end of the day it's on you to make the judgement calls on both what your story needs and how valuable the critiques you get really are. I just don't think you can go into this sort of thing with expectations, and if you do, you're very likely to feel let down just as you are feeling now.

 

Often in movies you get the character that is cool by putting off others with supposedly witty remarks. Because it is a put-off, there is no need to elaborate on the reasons of the remarks. In reality it is just a way to show off and feel "more" at the expense of others. If well done, it is funny in a movie. But it is not fun in real life. It seems to me there might be some of that here. I am not familiar with how reddit works, but I would say that you can point out how their language and lack of content makes you feel in a polite way. Just one post, to publicly label that post as the kind of post that is not really helpful. The point is making others read it. If the person fires up, then perhaps contact a moderator. But I feel you should give a chance to this user to see for themselves how their post is perceived differently. Maybe it is trolling, but maybe this person thinks it is being helpful by telling you the hard truth about writing.

 

Perhaps the most difficult lessons I ever learned about criticism was how to listen to it without comment beyond, "Thank you for taking the time to read and comment." The second hardest thing was taking the criticism into unemotional consideration before deciding to accept it or reject it, in whole or in part. (Lest you think I am a pillar of coolness, I still find those things difficult at times.) Writing results in a product that we put out there for consumers. The product may be dear to our hearts, but if we cling too assiduously to the product in its original form, we won't be able to improve it.

Once upon a time, I got three comments about a novel that I initially thought were very unhelpful: 1) "I just couldn't get into it." 2) "It just didn't come alive on the page like we hoped." 3) "Too descriptive." Hmmph, thought I. What the hell does that mean? First I had to let go to my emotional attachment to my words, but once that was accomplished, I realized that the opening was just plain dull. I had failed not only to begin the piece in res media, but had started it so far from res media as to put people to sleep while traveling to that point. Lesson learned thanks to three remarks that seemed generic and unhelpful to begin with.

“...overdone edgelord that could be used for comedy”, and then added “Nope, not interested, wouldn't read.”

The sentiment could've been expressed in kinder words, but the commenter did tell you something valuable: he or she found the edgelord overdone to the point of comedy and therefore wasn't interested in reading further. Hmm. Time to consider: is the characterization actually overblown? Is it therefore boring? Trite? Laughable? Did other reviewers make similar albeit gentler hints in the same vein? Listen, reflect, accept and act on, or reject and get on with life. Remember, too, that it is the product that is being critiqued, and not its creator.

 

But... isn't that comment, snarky though it is, tell you that the reader felt that your character was an edgelord that put him off to the point where he wouldn't read the story? Which then in turn tells you an area you may need to address, especially if you get similar feedback (but perhaps more constructively) from elsewhere.

 

Yeah, that is pretty much what many redditors are trying to do, and it often fails as the one liners they use are often so vague, you really can't tell their trying to get at. You might be able to "look between the lines", but you could only so far with discerning implications. And it's a phenomenon that is far from exclusive to creative writing subs. In my experience, I had this happen when posting discussions in entertainment, historical and geopolitical discussions, life events, and art subs. I once posted a time when my family found a live snake taped on the back of my fridge in r/creepyencounters. My post was mostly well received, but one user commented "liar" on it without bothering to explain why they made that accusation. Since it was a one word reply that lacked any substance, it was easily brushed aside.

That is a very plausible explanation, and one I'm whiling to give the benefit of the doubt.

Very true indeed. Just to clarify myself here, I didn't find their actual criticism to be upsetting whatsoever. It would just have been very helpful to me if they actually pointed out what specific aspects of my character was "too edgy", so I could tone them down. Fortunately, there where other comments that where more then happy to oblige, and I took in what they said into consideration and I agreed with their points. Again like I stated in my parent post, that particular comment just reminded me of more unpleasant and aggressive responses I had in the past. That is what inspired me to write this post.

 

I saw the comment on the reddit post and while it wasn't very informative, it was pretty tame by reddit standards.

Heavily trafficked social media sites and newsgroups are going to have a lot of snarky and unhelpful comments. A constructive, back and forth exchange is possible on reddit (but not common, depending on the sub) but is almost unheard of on Facebook or Twitter.

The good thing about facebook: almost anyone can get a facebook.

The bad thing about facebook: almost anyone can get a facebook.

 

Exactly. That particular comment I discussed in my post was fairly harmless in of itself. To me however, it's a little facet of Reddit's generally militantly caustic culture as a whole that I've got gripes with. Redditors are also so damn aggressive in pushing whatever views they got onto others, and nuance is an almost alien concept to them. Just about anything you submit will "trigger" someone (especially if post to a larger sub), regardless of what world views they follow. For example, if you mentioned that you dislike a particular character in r/StrangerThings, you probably will be torn to shreds by their fans. God have mercy on those who go against the hive mind in a political themed sub.

I've got a few personal experiences I would like to share here. One time I shared an artwork of a skinwalker on r/Imaginarymonsters, as I thought it was relatively well made. Some user decried it as "cultural appropriation", and accused it of something on the lines of trivializing "real native fears." Another time, I submitted a photograph of ISIS militants in some war photography sub. Keep in mind, war photography is a hobby of mine, and I've have a fascination with photos of combatants from all sides in all manner of historical and ongoing conflicts around the globe. In other words, I enjoy viewing images of Croatian fighters in the Bosnian War as much as I enjoy photographs of Iranian soldiers in the Iran Iraq War. One commenter accused me of being an ISIS shill, who was "helping them" with my post.

Yeah social media is a wasteland more toxic then Chernobyl.

As much as I would kill me inside to admit it, you're right about that. It's still an opinion I need to consider, though still I would preferred it was worded much more constructively.

 

Agreed. Tell me what you feel it's wrong, leave it up to me to fix it if I agree.
In the OP's example, maybe the guy really does cheat his wife. The character is a cheater. Deal with it or don't read it. Otherwise the beta reader is trying to create a story that simply is not there. Few things irk me so much as this.

 

Sometimes one learns more about the person doing the critique than one learns about one's story. One time a beta reader suggested changing the protagonist's age to make her legally an adult at the time of the incident, the nature of the injury suffered to something less severe, and the ending to have everyone live courageously and happily ever after in a bright and shiny world full of miracles. I thanked her for reading and commenting , but didn't act on her suggestions.

Sometimes new beta readers don't understand what is being asked of them and it helps to explain the kind of feedback you're looking for. On the other hand, I was once asked to be a beta reader by a brand new writer (first draft of first book) who supplied me with several single spaced pages of what he expected me to notice and how I was supposed to express comments: basically, "This is how you shall express the complete approbation that I am seeking." He didn't seek another beta reader since he felt I had been too negative in suggesting that a rewrite was in order to do the book's interesting premise full justice, and he didn't need other people "bringing him down." He didn't intend to do any editing or rewriting- said the publisher who'd no doubt jump at the chance to publish his book could "hire an editor to clean it up a little." He eventually published it himself but didn't bother to hire that editor.

 

Well geeze! They just wanted you to write a whole different story.

Probably the best thing I actually learned at the community college about art was how to critique.

First, you want to figure out what the artist is trying to do. That might mean asking a few questions. Then, if you know a way to help them accomplish that, by all means, offer some advice. But don't just tell them you essentially don't like the painting (or story) they're doing and that they should do a different one (the one you would do).

 

There's also constructive responses to criticism. You have to realize that the beta reader is doing you a favor, and not flip out if the beta reader says something you don't like.

Fortunately I've only had that happen once, but I've heard other people go through worse. Probably it's more likely if you know the person in real life, I dunno.

 

100% agree. All of my betas are either Romance writers and/or voracious readers of the genre.