Niggling problems in reading other stories.

Discussion in 'Setting Development' started by The Tourist, Apr 13, 2012.

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  1. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    True. The best AR-15 I had was built up from a real-deal Colt lower, a mil-spec flat-top upper, a thick straight taper stainless Shilen free-floated barrel and had a 3.5x10 Leupold turret knob scope.

    Most people referred to it as a "sniper rifle."

    I built it for prairie dogs in South Dakota.

    I think your questimate of 90% is very generous. I'd go at least 95% just for a start.

    http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb231/TheTourist_bucket/varmint.jpg
     
  2. thecoopertempleclause

    thecoopertempleclause New Member

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    I have never been exposed to any type of firearm before in my life, but obviously a lot of fiction in the modern day deals with it. I couldn't quite grasp the contrast in your original question though. On one hand your concern is that you will overly fixate on the details of the weapon, then as a contrast you cite an example of someone going into detail, but getting their facts wrong.

    From my own perspective, I, as a reader, only need to know what the story requires me to know. It may be that just the word 'handgun', 'rifle', or 'shotgun' is enough. If the type of gun is imperative to the plot (say in a crime story) then it might be pertinent to mention the calibre of the bullets, or if it's a fact which is going to create suspense later in the story, maybe I need to know how long it takes to reload. If a character runs out of ammo, I most likely need to know how many rounds the clip/cylinder can hold.

    If cutting out facts does nothing to damage your story though, cut them. If I'm reading the beginnings of a bank robbery scene, this is not going to help:

    The doors of the bank burst open and three masked figures walked calmly in. Each of them wore a different mask, one was Bugs Bunny, the next Yosemite Sam and the third Betty Boop. They scanned the room carefully as people began to scream. Bugs seemed to be the leader of the trio, he was dressed entirely in camouflage gear and brandished a PP-2000 submachine gun, one manufactured by the KBP Instrument Design Bureau. It weighed around 1.4kg and was fed by a 44-round detachable box magazine. In these magazines were loaded 9x19mm Parabellum rounds although it could also be used to stock armour-piercing rounds. When fired it had a straight-blowback action which could push through anything from 600-800 rounds in a minute, all capable or reaching 100m with standard rounds, or 200m with armour-piercing. A Zenit-4TK laser sight and tactical light sat on top of the gun which was now aimed squarely at the bank manager.

    "Nobody moves, then nobody dies," Bugs stated in a calm and steady manner. "I'm sure you can work out what happens if you try anything," he continued, placing special emphasis on the word 'anything', although still with resolute calm.
     
  3. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    Bad choice for you mates in Britain. Blowbacks are touchy around crumpet dust. Better to go with something fully automatic, fired from an an open bolt.

    Open bolt weapons have fewer parts. Simpler. Easier to clean.
     
  4. Late Starter

    Late Starter New Member

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    99% of the time 97% of my figures are made up. fact.

    Let's face it, I live in the UK - most people don't know the dangerous end from the "bullet goes in" end!
     
  5. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    It's called 'the breech.'

    Perhaps I have something to teach our UK brothers, after all. How do you guys feel about V-twin engines?
     
  6. Late Starter

    Late Starter New Member

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    Just to clarify - I'm one of the relatively small number who does have experience of various firearms!
     
  7. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    And that puts you into a very small group when it comes to writers.

    Over the years I have found that the talents to write and the talents to shoot are seldom found in the same people. Writers tend to be dreamers, shooters tend to be realists, or at least living in the moment.

    If you looked at the contents of the pockets of my jackets and jeans, you'd find practical stuff, right down to a little E1e SureFire flashlight. My wife once told me that the reason she never had a flat tire was that she prayed it would never happen.

    (BTW, the first time I drove her old truck I got a flat. The first time I drove her new truck the tread separated from the carcass.)

    Certain objects reflect the personality of the owner. Like I said, I drive a V-twin bike. It's durable. Lots of guys drive multi-cylinder high revving screamers. They all think they're professional racers.

    Here's an example, when someone needs to slice something, they always ask for my knife. I never lend it out--if a clown cannot plan his day he doesn't know how to use a 300 to 600 dollar knife.

    Same with writers. They want to tell a story. They construct a world of fantasy, and they insert a "hero" into the fray on some dangerous quest. Once the MC's fat is firmly in the fire, they haven't got a clue on what tools to give him to survive.
     
  8. AmsterdamAssassin

    AmsterdamAssassin Active Member

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    I'm a stickler for research, myself. Especially if it's quite easy to find. My novels are set in The Netherlands, where firearms are not as ubiquitous as in the US, so chances of getting shot are waaaay lower than getting stabbed [and due to my background I'm more knowledgable on blades than firearms, so that's to my advantage].

    Although I'm not a gun buff or enthusiast, I arranged a visit to a shooting range with a gun buff, and they were gracious enough to allow me to shoot not only .22, but also .357 Magnum and 9mm for the sake of accurate depiction in fiction [In the Netherlands, a new member to a shooting club is restricted to .22 for three months, to discourage 'Rambo' types from joining].

    If an author makes mistakes that could've been remedied by a little research, they lose credibility with me. And that might cause me to never sample their work again.
     
  9. AmsterdamAssassin

    AmsterdamAssassin Active Member

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    Also, I have US Law Enforcement Officers in my beta reader group, so if my research proves inadequate, they'll be sure to correct me before I publish my mistakes.
     
  10. AmsterdamAssassin

    AmsterdamAssassin Active Member

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    I found that it's not that b/w--there are dreamers who regard their writings as their 'babies', there are mercs who write formula-based thrillers to make a buck, and there are realists who want to put out a good story, but who are realistic enough to gauge the chances of their 'product'.

    My living conditions are different from yours, and certain items of your EDC would be illegal to carry in The Netherlands, so my EDC, while effective, will look like innocent items. However, my life experience has taught me how to use everyday items as weapons, so I'm never unarmed.

    I'm a practical motorcyclist, living in one of the most congested areas of the world [the Randstad of the Netherlands], so I ride a customized BMW R1100GS, which is pretty much as durable as your Harley, but is faster and more agile on unpaved roads, can take speedbumps faster than both HDs and crotch rockets, and is easier to maintain.
     
  11. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    That's where my problems arise. I do not know what I do not know. For example, I worked in a carpenters' shop in my late teens, and I got some smattering of training. I don't think I could cut an accurate set of jack-rafters, nor have I ever installed a joist. I know just enough to look like a fool in front of a cabinet maker.

    Be careful there, not all cops are gun guys. Often the first time a cadet touches a firearm is in training. Some cops hate guns and their knowledge is actually forced on them.

    The best bet is to go to target ranges, especially places that shoot combat, like the old IPSC contests.

    For us guys in that category, shooting is just a hobby. We can read as much as we like, we can reload and cast bullets, we can try any load we wish because the targets don't shoot back, and we can buy any carry method or holster we choose.

    Cops are usually mandated to carry a certain type of weapon with a certain load in a certain way. The best guns, like the 1911, are usually reserved for SWAT teams, and a member there might never fire one, at all.

    And the old contests for cops was PPC, a sophisticated stationary target match with duty weapons.

    Oh, you should have seen what passes for concealed carry classes! You had to fire 30 shots in my area, hey, some classes only require you to fire five. All you had to do was hit the paper--it didn't matter if you hit the black silhouette or the white space around it. They just wanted to count 30 holes. In fact, the range officer joked with me that he would take my word that there was really 30 holes in my target--it was just one big hole.

    So much for expertise on the subject. Be careful who you ask.
     
  12. AmsterdamAssassin

    AmsterdamAssassin Active Member

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    I do know what I do not know. And if I want to write about something I do not know, I know how to research the subject or find people who can help me gain enough knowledge for accurate depiction in writing.

    I know. The LEO I refer to a former military and now work in a Federal or State capacity. One of my closest American friends works as an Air Marshall. I know they're gun buffs, I wouldn't ask information from someone who doesn't like guns.
     
  13. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    AA, sounds like solid plans. BTW, my wife owns the first 'Air Marshall' revolver they used. Believe it or not, some used a Charter Arms Bulldog--the older one, like 'The Son of Sam' carried.

    The popular load was the Glazer Safety Slug. The thinking was that if the agent had to shoot--and missed--a Glazer would not penetrate the skin of the plane. There is some dispute on whether 'rapid decompression' would take place from a single bullet hole.
     
  14. Nakhti

    Nakhti Banned

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    OK, I have read most of this thread and I've come to the conclusion that I am sooo not your target audience. Not only am I female, and pretty much left cold by boys' war stories, I am also an ancient history lover and happen to find guns utterly uninteresting - in my historical period, missile weapons (arrows, for the most part) were considered cowardly and dishonourable. A really heroic warrior does the decent thing and kills you at swordpoint. Also, living in the UK, I have never even SEEN a gun (at least one that wasn't an antique in a display cabinet) much less touched one. All this adds up to the fact that when you start talking technical jargon about guns (or motorbikes, for that matter) my eyes start to glaze over and I skim read until I get to a more interesting part.

    However, I'm not entirely sure whether an average reader who has even a passing interest in guns and warfare would react the same way. Although completely over my head, maybe this level of detail is just right to them? You'd be better off asking someone in your target audience, I think :)
     
  15. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    It's not a war story, it's about a man finding his God. If anything, it's the horror and senselessness of war that makes a statement.

    (The intrigue is a chess game, more on how governments connive.)

    As for being a woman, there is a very strong female character in the story. Oh, she plays with the lead and then wants him killed, but it's not an 'army' action...
     
  16. AmsterdamAssassin

    AmsterdamAssassin Active Member

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    Women do that to me all the time... :D
     
  17. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    The woman in the book is a compilation of my mother's tongue, Juliet Prowse and a girl I used to date. I cannot speak for Ms Prowse, but the other two plotted my death many times.

    Oh, sometimes guys have trouble with women's dialogue scenes. Not me! I just close my eyes and type what already has been yelled at me!

    My 'woman in red' is the kind of female who actually threatens your life, states she never wants to see you again, and then you are awoken in the middle of night as she slips in along your side. Don't laugh, my old flame did it many times.

    I still refer to her as "my favorite mistake."
     
  18. Nakhti

    Nakhti Banned

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    Yeah I know, I didn't mention that because this thread was only about the guns n warfare aspect. But just to rule me out completely, I'm an atheist too ;)

    So it's not a romance then? Yeah, definitely me out I'm afraid ;)
     
  19. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    Well, it's not supposed to be. The female is in a very powerful position and likes to have a stable of nubile young men. My lead is 'approached' by her as just another Friday night.

    He dislikes her as much as the religious leaders trying to depose her, and frankly she doesn't like being told how to think. Among the intrigue, the guns, the red wine and the coarse language you can guess how they end up. ;)

    Edit: Just for fun, she has a number of "hidden entrances" which allows her to flit around the building. Never a good idea when hiring a guy who was shot at graduation.
     
  20. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @Nakhti: fear not my friend, I am writing a story with guns and a girl protagonist and romance :D It can be done, but a woman's gotta do it ;)

    @Tourist: thinking about what you said... I carry a water bottle shaped like Hello Kitty, what does that say about me? :D
     
  21. The Tourist

    The Tourist Banned

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    Well, let me give you a response based on the fact that you implied you were female.

    I do have some disagreement with the position "that it takes a woman to write for a woman." My rebuttal would be that you have "to know a woman." And I mean a real woman.

    Strange as it might sound coming from me, I have known (and loved) some very strong, independent and desirable women. In fact, they're the only women worth knowing. I'm not saying this in the guise that they should be catty, acerbic or petty. Well, the 'acerbic' part I actually go for...

    Cuddly, compliant women bore me to tears. They're not even fun to seduce. In fact, the female in my book does mirror behavior of an old flame.

    For example, after the relationship was over, she still used to sneak over to my house for sex. She decided to settle for a guy whose job had a future, wore nice clothes and took her to nice places. She admitted the guy was a wuss, telling me that he would never go to places with florescent lighting because it "dulled his tan."

    While losing her stung, I had to respect her for getting what she wanted. A biker in bed, a platinum credit card in the world.
     
  22. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @Tourist: I was being tongue in cheek though. I really don't think a man can't write a woman, far from it. I suppose I was referring to a more complex dynamic between writers and their characters. Reading your comment, I can tell that you are probably a male writer who'll be able to "nail" a female character quite well, and sometimes even better than a female writer. The thing with writing is, the way everything went all this time, centuries of women having to hide in the shadows (historically speaking) it left it's mark.

    I always write female protagonists, I suppose writing for me is introspective and I do find women more fascinating, if for no other reason than a challenge. Without any vitriol whatsoever, because I love to read and I know that people are much more than any one characteristic they may posses, but the literature has been dominated by male heroes whilst women keep getting the "supporting roles" such as damsel in distress, a big-breasted kick-ass with an entourage of supportive men around her, a love interest, or a bitch. But to find a truly independent female hero, like there are thousands of independent male heroes, is not easy at all.
    Initially, I felt that was due to the predominance of men in the writing profession, and I still think that contributes, but I never anticipated just how difficult it was to write a female hero. Whether it is the collective unconscious, which is now more or less permanently skewed towards male heroes, or inhibitions we women learn since birth (and I am not talking sexual inhibitions at all, just the awareness of being less important other than for procreation, the whole glass ceiling effect, despondency towards chances of success in a "man's world", etc) the outcome is that female writing a female can be a messy process, especially if the writer doesn't go for the stereotype.

    But, I feel there's a perspective to be offered. Sure, an insightful man will manage to characterise a woman really well, but he doesn't have the experience of what it is like to be a woman. Even though he can tell many other things about a woman, things that maybe even women don't see, only a woman truly knows what it is like. And simply because there's such a terrible lack of realistic females heroes, I think (and maybe I am wrong) that the only way to remedy that is for women to start writing women, and to do it well.

    I am not saying I am there yet. My female characters have all been vulnerable, teenagers, refugees, prostitutes, victims. It sucks, a bit, because as much as the audience who reads it loves them, I am striving to remove the tear-jerking effect and just write a "normal" person, but I haven't managed yet. Maybe there is no way to divorce a female character from the pain, since the characters are meant to represent collective experience in some way.

    Well, from this point on, I'd only be able to repeat feminist rhetoric, and we all know it so it's not necessary. But yes, I think, actually I feel it "in my bones" so to say, that there's something more that can be communicated about women, and I wonder if that something is a truly female perspective in fiction.
     
  23. Nakhti

    Nakhti Banned

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    Now you mention it... this is very true. Hmm... why DO we always reinforce the mentality that states men = heroes and women = support crew? I guess when it comes down to it, even seemingly strong, independent, intelligent and ambitious women see men as the starring role. I've even rewritten my novel so that my MC is now the male protag, rather than the female, who is now relegated to his love interest... :rolleyes:

    Yep, nail... on... head. Men can observe and portray women from the outside, but I'm not sure they can ever truly divorce themselves from their male way of thinking and really get inside a woman's head. They will generally either revert to stereotypes, or portray women as being very masculine - like the kick ass warrior chicks that men's action/adventure stories are so crammed with. I observed this phenomenon in all the books written by a (male) historical novelist I know. I noticed that he generally portrayed women as being very strong, independent, rational, proactive, determined, ambitious, decisive and action/goal oriented. Now, not to denigrate our fairier sex, but how many women do you know like this? Maybe the top achieveing 5% of the female population who end up as senior managers or CEOs. The rest of us mere mortals can only aspire to be so decisive in our best moments, whereas the rest of the time we're just as likely to be reactive, insecure, indecisive, and emotionally driven rather than rational and objective. But we can't write women like that, because it sends a bad message, eh? ;)

    Ok, what was the OP's original question again? :D
     
  24. digitig

    digitig Contributor Contributor

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    I'm in the UK, and on the one occasion I have looked down the "bullet comes out" end of a loaded rifle I was quite well aware that it was the dangerous end. I was in Belfast at the time, a part of the UK where I think most folks are more familiar with guns than they would wish.
     
  25. Nakhti

    Nakhti Banned

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    Well, of course Late Starter was making a little bit of a generalisation, but that's because it is GENRALLY true of the UK. I'm sure you'd have to adjust his assessment for those with gang affiliations, army experience or terrorist proclivities... (and by that I intend absolutely no insinuation about your own experience of guns!)
     
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