1. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Non-sensational accounts of witchcraft/black magic/occultism

    Discussion in 'Discussion of Published Works' started by OurJud, Apr 21, 2021.

    Does anyone know of anything worthwhile in this line? I don’t do e-books, so no kindle recs, please.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    What are you looking for? Supposedly true stories, fiction, fact about things like black masses of satanist groups?
     
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  3. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    For a general history of (mainly western) magic, try Kurt Seligmann’s Mirror of Magic. For an in-depth account of Chinese magic read Michael Saso’s Taoist Master Chuang; also Jason Read’s recently published Thunder Magic. WB Seabrook’s eyewitness account of Voodoo (including his own initiation) is well worth a read.
     
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  4. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    ‘Factual’ history, but not of modern witchcraft, etc. I’m interested in the subject dating back to the 1600s.
     
  5. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Thank you. Of them, only the first sounds like it may be along the right lines.
     
  6. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    Are you looking particularly for early modern European occultism then?
     
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  7. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I repeat what the Panda just said—magic goes back into the Paleolithic with shamanism and sorcery, and it existed in every culture. Are you looking specifically for the European version associated with witchcraft?
     
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  8. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    A key thing to bear in mind about European occultism as we know it- there is scant evidence for real pagan or satanic witchcraft, even less "non-sensational." The greater part, by far, of European occultism was practiced by Christians. Look at almost any of the famous and influential names- Marsilio Ficino, Pico di Mirandola, Cornelius Agrippa, Paracelsus, Nicholas Flamel, Jakob Boehme, John Dee, the Rosicrucians, etc. and you're looking at sincere, sometimes quite orthodox, Christians. They were not crypto-pagans; they sincerely believed- as did large parts of the European humanist intelligentsia- that Christianity and Neoplatonism, hermeticism, etc were complementary and in continuity with each other. This way of thinking receded after the Reformation era, as both Catholics and Protestants strove to forge a more doctrinally rigid (in their view purer) version of Christianity, and even today most people have a very lopsided idea of Christian history because of it.

    The only major example of an overt attempt at neo-paganism that I'm aware of is the 15th century Eastern Roman scholar Gemisthus Pletho who thought he could save the dying Roman empire with a blend of Neoplatonism and Zoroastrianism. It never took off, but Pletho was hugely respected as a scholar and his lectures on Plato that he delivered in Florence were a big influence in the Italian renaissance.
     
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  9. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Truthfully, I don’t know. I’m pretty ignorant on the field, and only know the subject interests me. If it helps, it’s stuff like the Salem witch trials / Witchfinder General I’m drawn to. For now I’ve gone for Stacy Schiff’s The Witches: Salem 1692 a History, but still open to suggestions.
     
  10. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I'm particularly fond of a movie called The Crucible, a largely accurate account of the Salem witch trials (researched from existing Salem court documents which were extensive). Originally written by Arthur Miller as a play in 1963 (or thereabouts—or was it more like '53?) and then turned into a movie, with Miller writing the screenplay.

    I've just discovered it's on YouTube, free if you let the commercials play. Well crap! It was, but now it says you need to buy or rent it. Well, here's a scene:

    I find it fascinating. They researched the way the Puritans in Salem talked and did it as realistically as possible. The movie and play have a fascinating history you can look into as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
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  11. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

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    something must be in the water/air?

    I just brought 2 people to the witchcraft/occult section on Monday :supershock:. i wont be in today...but i'll grab a few titles when I can
     
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  12. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    From what I've gathered about Salem and other early modern witch hunts, most if not all of the victims were Christians. If on rare occasions any magic was involved it would have been some kind of folk magic or herbalism as commonly practiced throughout Christendom (for modern examples see the Powwow/ Braucherei practiced by Pennsylvania Dutch or African-American Hoodoo). Note that the modern religion of Wicca has, as its founding myth, the belief that throughout the history of Christian Europe there was a clandestine lineage of pagan witches keeping "the old faith" alive in the face of persecution until finally it could come out in the open again in the 20th century. This is called "the witch cult hypothesis" and there is very little evidence for it.
     
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  13. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    This does sound right. It seems to me ideas like witchcraft were the psychological Shadow of that intense form of Christianity. The Christianity of groups like the puritans was so restrictive and held such impossible standards that they needed an outlet for the darkness that exists in us all but that had no expression in their religion. They were forced to see themselves as something like saints, and all their darker impulses were forbidden, so they went underground and emerged in the form of black magic and witches. Female sexuality and power was demonized and feared, so that's the particular form it took in those times and societies. This comes across clearly in The Crucible. But the witch hunts were also used as a way to rid society of undesirables, people like what today we would call homeless or deformed or unpleasant, with no family to take care of them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
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  14. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    What about John Dee and Edward Kelly?
     
  15. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    You can actually order a copy of Matthew Hopkins' pamphlet "The Discovery of Witches: In Answer to severall queries, lately Delivered to the Judges of Assize for the County of Norfolk" off Amazon.
     
  16. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Ah, it just takes a little searching! This one is free with ads:


    Just click through and watch it on YouTube.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
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  17. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    I haven't studied it in any depth but my understanding is that the Enochian system is built on Christian cabalistic mythology/ cosmology. I gather that John Dee would have counted himself a sincere Christian.
     
  18. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    @Le Panda Du Mal - I should stress I understand witches didn’t exist, at least in the traditional folklore sense.

    @Xoic - thank you. I may have seen the film as I’m a big fan of old horror films, but I shall check it out.

    @Naomasa298 - Thank you, I’ll take a gander.
     
  19. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    It's not horror, more like a slightly fictionalized account of the actual Salem witch trials. Of course that's pretty horrifying in its own way.
     
  20. Le Panda Du Mal

    Le Panda Du Mal Contributor Contributor

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    The early modern European witch hunts are probably the most destructive, so there might be something to your thesis, but there have been witch accusations and even deadly witch hunts in all sorts of non-Christian cultures as well. I know a Chinese, mostly non-Christian, family that has been almost split in two due to witchcraft accusations.
     
  21. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    The witch hunt is a universal phenomenon. Every society needs its scapegoats, on which it places its own sins and then tries to cleanse itself by killing or punishing the scapegoats. Sometimes that takes the form of actual witchcraft (accusations of it I mean), sometimes other forms.

    In fact, one interesting thing about The Crucible—the same actor who finds the girls doing their witchcraft in the woods and then takes a very active part in prosecuting other accused witches (Bruce Davidson) was also in the 1st X-Men movie. He played the politician who wanted to create the Mutant Registration Act—a modern day witch hunt. I think he was chosen for the role because it was basically the same role he was already known for.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2021
  22. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah, I was thinking of a different film altogether - something from the 60s.
     
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  23. J.T. Woody

    J.T. Woody Book Witch Contributor

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    • Salem Possessed: the social origins of witchcraft by Paul Boyer and Stephen Nissenbaum
    • Witchcraft in Europe:400-1700 edited by Alan Charles Kors and Edward Peters
    • Salem Witch Hunt: A Brief History with Documents by Richard Godbeer
    • America Bewitched by Owen Davies

    A couple of these are old and may be out of print :superthink:

    Also, there was a lot more on wicca and pagan rituals, too
     
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  24. OurJud

    OurJud Contributor Contributor

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    Tha
    Tjanks, I’ll joy these down. Not even started the book I bought last week (Dyacy Schoff’s Witches: Salem 1692 a History£ but I’ll beat these on mond.
     
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  25. Catriona Grace

    Catriona Grace Mind the thorns Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    You might check out The White Goddess Pagan Portal online. Ryewolf has supplied a good deal of information you might find interesting.
     
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