Novum publishers

Discussion in 'Publisher Discussion' started by jason lewis, Feb 24, 2015.

  1. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think a $10k advance is that high, is it? I recently read an article about first-time authors scoring really big advances. I was thinking $10k was a realistic number for a minimum.
     
  2. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    My vibe is that it's fairly high--that is, at the high end of advances for ordinary mortals.
     
  3. Laurin Kelly

    Laurin Kelly Contributor Contributor

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    That's my vibe as well, at least among my circle of authorial friends and acquaintances.
     
  4. ShaunGreen

    ShaunGreen New Member

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    Oh, in that case I think I already have had my beta group created and used!

    I have given a copy to my eldest three nieces as well. The 12 year old thought it was good and finished it, but more into horses, the 9 year old who isnt a reader, read slower and stopped reading when her 12 year old sister told her the story ending ( got an untraditional twist and sub plot.) The 9 year old who can never be seen without a book, read the entire thing in three weeks and doesn't stop talking about it. She has already asked me when I am writing my next one? My 8 year old daughter can still be found reading it from time to time despite having a copy for over 2 years. My son listened to it when I made it up 3 years ago at bed times, but has little interest in reading anything but football fiction, mainly Frank Lampard!

    60% beta success rate despite it being a select group?

    My question regarding needing a beta was more aimed at whether i have used the correct style, grammar, verbal prose, etc correctly. As I said I don't see myself as a writer yet, just a dad who wrote down ideas. Would an agent overlook the fact I write in the third rather than the first or vice versa if he likes the pitch and storyline?
     
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  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    It's reasonably standard for a first book with a Big Five publisher. I think the expected range is $7.5K to $10K. But a lot of reputable smaller publishers offer token advances (I have one that only gives $1K) or no advances at all. Higher royalty rates with the smaller publishers, of course.

    You're several steps away from worrying about any of that, though, and there are lots of changes going on in publishing-land. By the time you get your novel finished, polished, agented, and submitted, who the hell knows what the standards will be?
     
  6. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't think agents expect books to be perfect, but I think they expect authors to have a good grasp of the market for their writing and to be able to change things as necessary.

    Do you plan to keep writing and make this an on-going thing, or is it a one-shot deal?

    Honestly, unless you're really interested in writing itself, you may find that getting this story a publisher is more trouble than it's worth. There's a LOT to learn, and a lot of steps to take, and there's absolutely no guarantee of success, especially for a first book.

    So if this is a one-time deal, you might be further ahead to self-publish. Not because you'll get great sales, but because you could spend a whole lot of time on trying to get a publisher and end up with nothing but a lot of learning you won't be using in the future.

    @Steerpike has successfully self-published a children's book, I think. (I'm not 100% sure of how "successfully" is defined, but I remember being favourably impressed by numbers at some point). Maybe you can get some feedback.
     
  7. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Hmmm... I wasn't even thinking the big guys, or at least only them. Someone told me that an agent won't work with you unless they believe they can get a minimum advance of $10k, that it's just not worth it otherwise for them. I heard this at a conference where editors and agents were talking about the biz. I'm applying for grants and fellowships and it would be strange to be awaeded more money from those to work on this project and write this book than I might actually selling the book.

    I know a lot of smaller places don't usually offer much of an advance, but I have a friend who got $25k for his book from a small publisher. His contract did make him forgo movie rights so that could have been why it was so high. But I don't think his book is going to be a movie. That was several years ago. If it does ever become a movie, his name will not be in the credits and it will not say it was based on his book. His book was nonfiction. For a few years he interviewed people in prison all connected to a crime, and those notes became his book.

    I know if I go with a small press or a university press, I'm more likely looking at $1k to $5k and I'm not just talking about the advance. That's probably over all. And I'm not sure how to feel about that given you can make the same with short stories.

    @BayView -- I'm really curious about this from your point of view. Do you think agents take on books that they don't think they can get a $10k advance for at least? Are there some agents that will and some that won't and how do you tell them apart? Also, does your agent represent all your writing? Does he/she have first refusal or something like that?
     
  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    This is purely a side comment on my part, but I don't see why? If it were a loan, sure, that would make sense. But I always assume that grants and fellowships are for things that have societal value but are unlikely to make much money--if they were going to make much money you wouldn't need the grant. The actual check that you cash isn't the judgement of the societal value of the work.
     
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  9. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Good point. I'm glad you posted.
     
  10. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I know this wasn't addressed to me, but my agents don't have any arbitrary rules like that. They get a cut of my ongoing royalties as well as the advance, so it would be bad business to only take the advance into account.
     
  11. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I just know Bay has an agent. I wasn't sure who else did, but thanks for your response. When I heard this it was during a panel discussion in NYC. It was so long ago that I can't remember exactly who was there, but they were supposed to be experts and know the business. I remember one of them talking about a book that he liked but knew it wouldn't get a big advance. He advised this writer to try university presses on his own and did not take him on as a client. So, it would seem that the old saying money is money does not always apply. It probably would have been very easy for that agent to sell this book to a university press for the author and take a cut, but he didn't It kind of seemed like these deals just weren't worth an agent's time. I've also heard most books don't make back their advance so maybe that's why agents are heavily focused on advances.
     
  12. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I don't think they are, as a rule. Most agents will sub to multiple rounds of editors, beginning with the Big 5 print imprints (who would typically give the largest advances) but then going onto smaller imprints which may only give token advances. It's still worth their time to sub to these imprints.

    University presses are a different matter, but there are an awful lot of options between 'Simon and Schuster' and 'University of the Middle of Nowhere Press.'
     
  13. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But did they say that as a general rule they always absolutely demand an expectation of ten thousand for the first project or they won't even look at the author, or just that ten thousand was good?

    It makes perfect sense that one of an agent's concerns would be likely profit per time spent. I would think that a variety of other factors would weigh into it, though.

    Also, I wouldn't assume that it would be "very easy" to sell the book. It's probably quite a bit of effort to sell a book and manage that deal, whether the profit is big or small.
     
  14. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    No, they very clearly said $10k was the minimum they would work with. They made that seem low compared to the deals they usually make. For those of you who have agents, is something like this something you can discuss before signing anything? I wouldn't really know how to bring this up, but it really did seem like the industry norm when I went to that panel discussion.
     
  15. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    You know? If I'm only going to get $1k advance I don't think I want an agent taking a cut of that.
     
  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    But do you want an agent to keep an eye on your rights and your royalties and your career and your future income opportunities and the best publisher for your book?

    Focusing purely on the up-front money in hand seems like a mistake. If that were the point, you could work a second job for a few weeks.
     
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  17. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think agents hope for more sizeable advances, but I think most of them also hope to sell to Big Five. My agent, at least, starts at various imprints of the Big Five (where we'd be getting more significant advances) and also maybe some of the larger independents (that also offer significant advances) and then if there are no deals to be had there, works her way down. I don't know if there are precise numbers on any of this, but there's absolutely no guarantee that a book an agent agrees to represent will ultimately sell. So they might agree to represent one based on hopes, only to have those hopes disappointed.

    And, no, my agent doesn't represent all of my writing. There's no right of first refusal - every book is a fresh slate. If I wanted to send one of my books elsewhere, I could, and if she wanted to refuse to represent one of my books, she could. As it is, anything I think might have mass market appeal I send to her, and she hasn't refused to represent any of those. But by mutual agreement she doesn't represent my m/m stuff because it's such a small market there wouldn't be advances to interest her, and it's such a small market I already know the major players and don't really need her guidance/sales connections.
     
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  18. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Thank for the response. This actually clears a lot up. While you were writing this I posted a new thread about agents because I know that this one was about something else. But you really cleared things up for me. Thank you.
     
  19. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    You'll need to carefully read the agency agreement before you sign anything, because just because my agent works one way doesn't mean ALL agents work that way. But I think it's pretty standard.
     
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  20. galaxaura

    galaxaura New Member

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    Somehow I am overburdened with self-publishing, I must say. Since I wrote my book in German and English, I became aware of this publisher, which is apparently active in both German and English speaking countries. I definitely want to take use of services like editing and so on. I am well aware that this will cost something, whether it is self-publishing or with this publisher. I'm currently exploring which option is better for me. Assisted self-publishing actually sounds like something I would like to have.
     
  21. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    Novum are not a self publishing company - they are a notorious vanity publisher, do not touch them with a barge pole (likewise Austin Macauley)

    If you have the money to spend and need help with self publishing, i'd suggest looking at book baby... however note that you will really struggle to make your money back (especially on your first book)

    If you want to self publish profitably, you need to be able to do most things yourself, and target the money where it matters - book covers, editting, and arguably blurbs
     
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  22. tandem1

    tandem1 New Member

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    I actually don’t have a lot of experience in publishing books for the public, but I can totally see why authors get annoyed by self-publishing. I mean, if I was going to publish a book, I’d rather prefer any publisher than publishing it by my own. We are authors, we enjoy writing and want people make read our book – and enjoy reading it! But it can get pretty annoying if you have to act like a “company” on your own, without having any experience…which is indeed frustrating if you can’t do what you want anymore: writing…As well, as an author you always have to spend some money on your book for proofreading, marketing and so on, or isn’t that the case? Or would a publisher take a well-written manuscript (I mean the story itself) even if it contains a lot of grammatical, syntactical or orthographic errors? I’m in doubt of that…but again, I don’t have any experience with that, so I would be happy if somebody can tell me more about the process when you publish a book.

    @galaxaura, your project sounds really interesting. If you like, I can have an eye on your German text as I am a German native as well. :) I will start a conversation with you privately, because I want to ask you a few more things…and it’s easier to write in German. :-D

    @bigsoftmose, don’t you think it is way better if a publisher is working with you on your manuscript rather than if you have to find people for every “task” on its own, such as proofreading, editing, book cover, marketing, etc.?
     
  23. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    I think proper trad publishing with a real publisher is a viable option... whether it's way better depends on the capability of your publisher and the fine detail of your contract.

    It is definitely not 'way better' to work with a vanity publisher who cares neither a jot nor tittle about the quality of your manuscript or whether it sells books because their business is charging authors to publish.

    In a traditional deal the publisher pays for the book to be produced (edited, proofed, cover), they also arrange for it to be placed into some brick and mortar stores, and to be available through trade catalogues like Gardiners for other stores to order if they wish. They pay for the formatting as an ebook and produce the sales page blurb and upload it to amazon and potentially other outlets. They may also pay an advance (this varies and for an unknown if they do the advance will be small.)

    For this they take the lions share of the royalty leaving you with 8-10% of print and 25-40% of ebook

    They may do some marketing but they also may not, that again varies company to company and contract to contract

    They do not charge the author a dime... or ask them to guarantee to but a certain number of books...
    if a publisher asks you for money, don't walk, run.

    The biggest issue however with a trad deal is getting accepted (or getting accepted by an agent in order to get accepted) - many authors will spend ages querying and never get an offer, irrespective of the quality of their book

    ---


    As a self publisher assuming you want a quality product you will need to pay for editing (£500-1000), proof reading (£100- 300) and a cover (£50-400)... you may also have to pay to format your book (£100 ish) unless you buy the software to do it yourself, and possibly for a sales blurb unless you are good at copywriting (£50-250)

    You will also have costs around an author website and an EMS (mailing lists) and sundry other things.

    Once you have your book you can upload it on amazon and wherever else you wish (kobo, nook, apple, google play and lots of smaller outlets)

    Getting your print book into bricks and mortar stores will be difficult, but you can get into the gardiners catalogue etc via ingram spark

    once your book is distributed you will need to advertise it via amazon, facebook, bookbub and various other options. There will be costs involved here, but ads should wash their own face (although you can lose money while you are learning)

    If you price between $2.99 and 9.99 you will keep 70% of your ebook royalty from amazon (the other outlets vary but 50-70% is a good ball park)

    using print on demand services like KDP Print or Ingram spark you will keep 60% of your print royalties minus printing costs... which depending on how you price generally comes out at a net of $2 a book (this is one reason why most self publishers make most of their money on ebooks)

    The major issue with self publishing is time... you're not just the author you're also the publisher, so you have to run the business if you want to sell books...

    ----

    A typical vanity deal will be the worst of all worlds

    They will talk a great game about working with you, and hybrid models and various other puff...

    they will then charge you between $1500 and $10,000 for your 'share' of the risk, and sell you 'essential' services like editting' on top... they'll use the cheapest possible 'designers' (which is why so many vanity titles look horrible), and take only basic care with proofing and formatting.

    They may put the book on amazon (this varies) but are unlikely to put it else where... they'll do zero marketing unless you pay extra for it (They don't need to make sales they already have your money)

    Should you manage to make some sales, they will then add insult to injury by giving you royalties in the region of 10% minus, and in some cases taking the actual copyright

    at the end of the day you'll have spent way more than you would self publishing without receiving any of the benefits of a trad deal
    ----

    The TLDR version

    Trad = Can work well with patience and determination.
    Self = Can work well with patience and determination.
    Vanity = you may as well burn your money in the street
     
  24. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Sounds like a variant of the "you've won the Mozambique state lottery" scam.
     
  25. galaxaura

    galaxaura New Member

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    How do you learn to do that? So far I lack the experience completely.

    Publishers probably don't. But I have seen a book published by self-publishing that was not proofread and was of poor quality. I would not want that for my book. It should be as good as possible! I'm open for suggestions on how I can achieve this.

    It would definitely be of importance to me that it is also a concern of a publisher, with whom I would possibly publish, to want to sell my book successfully.

    How is that actually with contracts? You probably get them in advance to look at them and check them? If a contract shows that for every book sold, not only a percentage goes to the author, but also to the publisher, can this be seen as a positive sign that the publisher is also interested in selling the book well?

    This sounds like a lot of small and large steps that still need to be done. I thought so already. Especially if I have to use the services for the German and English speaking markets, it will probably add up well in money and time.

    Is it possible to estimate in advance how much time and money you will need to publish a book (or more precisely two books)? Writing is a hobby for me that has accompanied me from childhood on, but I am very busy at work and have hardly any time for elaborate self-publishing.

    In principle, I do not think it is wrong to pay for services. But what would be the service that amazon would provide in order to retain 30% per book sold?
     
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