Obama smells Syrian sarin

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by erebh, Jun 13, 2013.

  1. erebh

    erebh Contributor Contributor

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    not often... not many have good solid alternative ideas, they just tend to push agendas.

    the important words in that quote are "We should..."
     
  2. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    Yeah, I agree. I try to do it, although I could stand to do it a lot more often. For most things, I've arrived at my views over quite a number of years of thinking about them. Someone making comments on an internet forum, or linking to articles, isn't likely to change that, even when maybe it should. I think that's the nature of political discourse on the internet.
     
  3. JJ_Maxx

    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    American genocide? CIA rebellions? It's getting way too to tin-foil hat in this thread.
     
  4. erebh

    erebh Contributor Contributor

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    zzzzzzzzzzzz..............
     
  5. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    [MENTION=2124]Lemex[/MENTION]: Of course it wasn't only about oil. US willful destabilisation of geostrategic targets and war economy have multiple benefits, resources are only one of them. However, the motivation is greed, not "noble causes" such as "humanitarian bombings" and other propaganda slogans used to pacify american voters.

    As for 'fascist regimes" that is a value judgement that you are making based on the propaganda in the western media, which is very often removed from the truth. To me, to be perfectly honest, Guantanamo and war-economy look a lot like fascism, but you don't see me calling to arms to "liberate" american people. I assume they like their country the way it is, and I give them the right to run it any way they want. That's democracy, not arming the separatists world-over, in order to create violent crises. Angel of mercy indeed.

    In any case, I am not saying any of this to dissuade you. Still, I wish to voice my opinion because I am disgusted with this war-mongering and meddling in other countries business, which always ends up with the "liberated" country in shambles and multi-trillion dollar profit for american government.

    Having said that, I'm exiting this discussion. I like others above have reached my conclusions both from first hand experiences with this very issue, as well as from gathering information from a variety of sources. Over this time I have learned to leave people to reach their own conclusions, because we all have our reasons.
     
  6. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    [MENTION=35110]jazzabel[/MENTION]. I'm sorry, I just can't accept the idea that it was mostly to do with American greed. Obviously that had a part, I wouldn't ever deny that. Most wars are based on some form of greed. I can't say it seems that it was a very big factor considering the amount of money involved in rebuilding the country, and the number of lives lost, not just American.

    I don't honestly think that's the truth. I can't prove you are wrong of course, but if the news here in the west was so biased and propagandized then I wonder why people don't call it out on that. At least here in the UK, when I know for a fact on both sides of the media game, that it's extremely easy to tell official media your opinions and corrections. Otherwise the entire point of being in the west is a joke and we shouldn't even bother having this conversation.
     
  7. JJ_Maxx

    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    Lets see, hmmmm...

    Genocide - n. The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.

    Yeah, I guess I overslept the day that America did that.

    I also find it humorous that everyone still thinks that the US went to Iraq for oil. Especially when the oil has always been controlled by Iraqis and most of the oil in Iraq goes to China, our biggest rival. If we had some kind of plan to steal their oil, we did a rotten job of it.
     
  8. Oswiecenie

    Oswiecenie Active Member

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    Let's not forget that Saddam was allied with the West when he committed his most atrocious actions (Halabja massacre, aggression against Iran). :rolleyes:

    Apart from that, what have fascists to do with this topic? Mussolini has been dead for quite a while now.
     
  9. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    I must admit, I'm kind of troubled by the fact that me and you, JJ, who do not consider the US to be this heart of pulsating war and hatred are being told we are ignorant and too brainwashed to consider any other point of view.

    Yeah, because fascism died in the 1940s. :rolleyes:

    I don't ever deny that the US and the west have done terrible things in the past, and still does them (look at the NSA leak just recently), and not always lived up to it's own ideals, but my point has always been to just be humble about that fact and not spread bitterness about something you might not actually know everything about
     
  10. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    [MENTION=2124]Lemex[/MENTION]: Millions of people here in the UK are calling it that. Perhaps you are not one of them but I guess it depends which circles you move in. What I said is a commonly held attitude, based on facts which are easy to find if you choose to research this topic beyond what you are told about it by major media houses. I am not listing any examples because there are so many, I thought it was common knowledge.

    Whichever way you want to dress it up, who has the right to wage wars on nation after nation after nation, always thousands of miles away? Nobody. I find it deeply upsetting that anyone should claim that they have such a right.
     
  11. JJ_Maxx

    JJ_Maxx Banned

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    My wife's grandmother was a holocaust survivor, so I guess you could ask her about choosing to go to war.
     
  12. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Maybe I'm just being naive, but I don't think the news would last very long if it was just reporting fantasy. All propaganda is lies, as one great Orwell once said, everyone knows that an institution like the BBC puts a pro-west spin on things, but not that much. Sorry, I just can't agree with you here.

    I've got no reason to sing the praises of any government, especally not the American government, but while people might not have the right to rage war (I can agree with you there) it does happen. Having or not having the right to do things doesn't really matter very much to some people and these people can be the most dangerous, but not always. As I said, sometimes you have to pick between what's bad and what's worse. That's all I've really been saying.
     
  13. erebh

    erebh Contributor Contributor

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    Hmmm BBC, British Broadcasting Corporation... or Blame-dodging, Backstabbing Cover-up...

    They wouldn't lie about Jimmy Saville and a whole cult of paedophiles stretching back to the 50s. Or the Birmingham 6, The Guildford 4, The Tottenham 8 - all 3 of which had Panorama programmes made about them which "proved" they were IRA bombers and then almost 20 years later completely acquitted, freed from prison, publicly apologised to by UK govts and compensated. What else did the BBC do, more recently, hmmm covered up the whole Hillsborough disaster.

    What else have the BBC have been accused of by its own high profile stars, homophobia, racism, not being impartial or neutral, sexist, anti Iris, pro jewish - so much so they hid the real news including important documents which exposed the lies they aired on TV. To add to that list is Indophobia, anti-hindu bias, anto Sikh racism, climate change hypocrisy, - this is a great one -

    In 2011, after three years of Primark's effort, the BBC acknowledged that its award-winning investigative journalism report of Indian child labor use by Primark was a fake. BBC apologized to Primark, to Indian suppliers and all its viewers.

    The BBC have been attacked by UK TV watchdogs for misrepresenting the Iraq War, The Lebanon War, The Northern Ireland conflict, The Arab-Israeli conflict

    Maybe i'm making all this up. The world wide corporation paid for my UK license payers, the UK govt run news agency wouldn't do anything of the sort - see the huge list of stuff here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_BBC
     
  14. Oswiecenie

    Oswiecenie Active Member

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    It did. Fascism rose and fell with Mussolini, who coined the term and developed its ideological tenets. With National Socialism it's pretty much the same thing. I know that nowadays people like to apply the "fascist"/"nazi"-label to pretty much everything they disagree with but that doesn't change the facts.
     
  15. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Just taking this example, if anyone knew about that they should be prosecuted. There were rumors, everyone had heard rumors, especally after that Louis Theroux special on him, but we happen to have the guidelines of 'Innocent until proven guilty', and no one actually knew. The only people who did know were the victims, who were terrified of coming up against an at-the-time extremely powerful and influential man. Think I'm making this up, ever read Private Eye? Just ask Ian Hislop about this sort of thing. A respectable alternative to the 'party line' isn't too hard to find in this country.

    As for criticism in general, I'm glad you think that a corporation with tens of thousands of employees across the country, over nearly 80 year must be driven entirely by a single, golden purpose and can never mess up or do terrible things. I find it pretty telling when people think humans and human societies are either absolutely infallible or absolute monsters. Again, the real world isn't that binary, it's always more complicated than that.

    This is a bit like saying Democracy can't exist outside of Greece, or Marxism can't exist outside of Germany. It's nonsense.
     
  16. erebh

    erebh Contributor Contributor

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    but first you said

    And now you're putting it down to human error in a huge company with lots of employers and "whoops, a little reporting mistake - soz".

    You've lost all cred Lemex
     
  17. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    How? Those two statements do not contradict each other. If the BBC puts a pro-west spin on things, no matter how slight, then it isn't infallible is it? Reading, it kind of helps.
     
  18. raven6625

    raven6625 Member

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    I sometimes wonder what the internet would be like without hitler to compare things to...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
     
  19. raven6625

    raven6625 Member

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    Double post- delete please
     
  20. erebh

    erebh Contributor Contributor

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    In 2011, after three years of Primark's effort, the BBC acknowledged that its award-winning investigative journalism report of Indian child labor use by Primark was a fake. BBC apologized to Primark, to Indian suppliers and all its viewers.

    So after the UK TV watchdogs, the UK govts of labour and tory, the EU, the Human Rights Commissions, Amnesty Intl and the European Court of Human Rights have all slated the BBC for their reporting of various conflicts/wars you still put it down to a few rogue reporters.

    And this kind of helps...how?
     
  21. Oswiecenie

    Oswiecenie Active Member

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    You're actually right to a certain degree, except for the 'It's nonsense'-part. Democracy and Marxism are heavily overused and distorted terms as well, especially Marxism which originally didn't describe any particular political current but rather Marx' method of analyzing socioeconomic developments.
     
  22. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    Again, I apparently need to point out that the BBC apologized for that, if it was all about pumping out propaganda do you think they'd seriously bother? We are customers to the BBC. And again, I never said the BBC was infallible, and I know it's not first hand. But I don't act like something is either all good or all bad. Perfect or infernal. Despite what you might think I don't have a pro-government bias here; I'm a libertarian, quite the opposite.

    I never put it down to rogue reporters, and I never even hinted that I suggested that. I intentionally left no opinion on where these lies came from because I'm not going to presume I know. What I do know for a fact, and the only thing I do know with 100% certainty is that it isn't a perfect organization, but I'm also aware they sometimes take the time to listen to it's customers, the paying public - not just the British public. Again, you seem to think I'm saying things I'm not so you can better tackle a point I'm not actually making. That, my friend, is called a 'strawman' argument.

    Also, it does help because criticism gives something to chance to improve that area, even if it doesn't take it, it's the option and the awareness of fault, and it shows we still have free speech. It helps because it reminds us of what we could easily lose when we subscribe to paranoia and manipulation.

    Then in that case we are in complete agreement, and I take back the 'It's nonsense' part out of respect. :)
     
  23. erebh

    erebh Contributor Contributor

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    After 3 years of lawsuits from Primark - BBC defence paid for incidentally by the license payer with no sanctions taken against any BBC staff.

    Of course, it always has been the propaganda machine of the British govt.

    You said they are not infallible, mistakes happen, human error. - Once maybe and if the actual 'reporter' was punished but every month, every year since day 1?

    Yeah we've all seen Points Of View where OAPs complain about Eastenders blah blah blah

    So you think it is acceptable if the country's number 1 source of news, actually invents stories that suit either themselves, or their govt of the time, or their own alternative agenda so long as it acknowledges it, as a mistake, many years later, and apologises without punishment or sanction. In the case of the Jimmy Saville cover-up, even go as far as to give the AG a massive golden handshake?
     
  24. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

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    If that's true the problem is more with the justice system, not just a bunch of journalists. In that case, yeah, I'd agree with you if you said that this is terrible, it is.

    Yeah. It has, but it also has a duty to report the news. If they do this or not is obviously debatable, but before you say what I can already hear coming, no because it's not perfect doesn't mean it's pure evil. I'm sorry, I find this idea frankly childish.

    You mean like all those journalists and reporters who lost their jobs following the phone hacking scandal? Or do we now get to pick what definition of the word 'reporter' we are using here?

    Yeah, because Eastenders is a reputable and serious debate show. Are you taking this conversation seriously anymore?

    No, I don't think it's alright for a news corp to invent news stories - I didn't realize I hadn't made that clear already. Again, either you are not reading what I'm writing, which makes you a troll, or you are creating strawmen, which makes you dishonest. Which is it?

    I barely need to say what I am meaning (as if it's not been clear for some time) the world is more complex than just good or evil, there is a thick shade of grey, and you can't make me think things are either black or white.
     
  25. erebh

    erebh Contributor Contributor

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    The justice system in this case is not at fault, Primark brought a civil case - and won. Its about the BBC making up stories in the first place, then spending a load of your license money on make fake programmes and then paying off their victims again with your licence fees.


    Now we're getting somewhere - thank you.


    They didn't work for the BBC, they were employed by another devil - Murdoch and they only lost their jobs because he was forced to shut down the whole paper. ost of those 'reporters' were re-employed by the Sunday Sun.


    You're a writer, read between the lines - the only customers the BBC listen to are on points of view about needless, pointless, time killing drivel.


    I'll tell you what it is, it's about you not being able to read or choosing parts of a sentence to suit your own innocence - the question was not, is it ok for the BBC to make up stories, the question was - do you think it all goes away with a pathetic apology years later?

    If by black and white you mean truth and lies, for a news corporation it's vital.
     

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