On beauty, racism and the effect media has on self esteem

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by jazzabel, Mar 5, 2014.

  1. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Yes; I think that the fact that supermodels "get by" in uncomfortable shoes when working is not entirely unlike the fact that Leonard Nimoy "got by" with wearing pointed ears as Mr. Spock. People with jobs that are about creating a fantasy, dress in accordance with that fantasy while working those jobs. That doesn't mean that it's reasonable to expect others to dress that way in real life. Some people may try to bring that fantasy to life--they might dress like a supermodel, or an anime character, or a Vulcan, when they're out in the world. But failing to do so is not the equivalent of failing to put effort into one's appearance.

    (And when a woman is seen out in the world dressing supermodel-style, I can't help wondering if it is about employment--is she perhaps employed in a job related to makeup or hair or fashion and required to dress that way? How many women who could go to work wearing no makeup or five-minute makeup, and flat or low-heeled shoes, choose to do the whole two-hour-face-and-hair-and-spike-heels thing? How often is that look entirely voluntary?)
     
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  2. Lae

    Lae Contributor Contributor

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    @jannert I agree with all except the controlling and keeping them back, I just dont see this connection.

    I don't like fake breasts, I don't like the whole fake package, I want my Mrs to be comfortable in her own skin. I have no desire to control her and no man I know does either.

    I don't believe it's a male thing anymore, I think women are far far worse at judging each other especially in the media. You show me a naked woman in a magizine and I'll look, fake breasts or not.
     
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  3. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    I can't speak for everyone obviously, but my girlfriends from work and I all dressed relatively smart and wore white coats at work. However, it used to take us no more than 15 minuted to dress up. I never understood how women can sit in front of a mirror for two hours, unless they are doing a manicure and pedicure and fake tan, and hair blow dry and fake lashes and they haven't even thought about what they're gonna wear. If you plan your wardrobe, know how to apply makeup, know your products and go for a 'natural look' you can easily be out the in less than half an hour (including breakfast and a shower).

    I had a hangup because I'm just under 5ft7 and curvy while a lot of my friends are very thin or tall or both, so I always wore unreasonable heels. But the standard for them would be just very low kitten heels, not too bad in the feet. We were very fashion conscious, but that wasn't a norm. In fact, looking scruffy and wearing sensible shoes and no make up, is the usual style of choice for overworked female junior doctors.

    On a consultant level, women start power dressing in designer suits and Manolo heels, some of them look really expensive lol. I think on that level, wearing expensive clothes and being styled within an inch of your life is actually very intimidating for others, so it's a way for women to dominate. Strange as it sounds, men really do go weak in the knees and start fumbling in front of a woman like that, so as far as I'm concerned it's a valid tool to command respect and obedience (which is what every boss wants after all).
     
  4. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    A digression: This makes me think about my mother, who could make a three-hour production of getting out the door in jeans, sneakers, and a tee shirt. I'm not sure that she could have left the house in fifteen minutes if it were on fire.

    No, I really have no point behind this particular post. I just couldn't help making it.
     
  5. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @ChickenFreak : Maybe she just enjoys having some her-time? :)
     
  6. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    I think that with Mom, it was about filling her day with useless activity so that she couldn't possibly be expected to do anything useful. If getting up, bathed, dressed, breakfasted, taking your pill, getting the paper, and getting the mail takes until midafternoon, and then there's two or three hours for getting lunch, the risk of doing anything useful is pretty much eliminated.

    I seem to be in a Mood. :)

    Edited to add: Though I could circle that thought around and argue that the demand for unrealistic expectations of appearance in women can, in part, be seen as a way to distract women from activity that would lead to real-world accomplishments and power.
     
  7. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    No one's expecting anyone to wear anything. Wear whatever you want. Heels are just a tool to help some girls get attention, that's all. You're free to walk as you choose!
     
  8. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    You have made an excellent couple of points. If you don't expect the fake package when you look at women, then you are not the part of society I was referring to. Good on you. You sound like a great guy. Comfortable in her own skin. I like that. And you obviously don't wish to control her, or make her feel inferior. You give me hope.

    As for the magazines, as long as you don't prefer the artificial boobs, I reckon you've got your head screwed on straight.

    And you are also quite right about women judging each other. (Like my mother trying to force me to wear makeup and heels, even after I'd pointed out to her that my boyfriend of the time hated both.)

    The solution is the same, whether it's men or women judging this kind of appearance. Say no. Refuse to play this game.
     
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  9. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    Hehe, sounds like me on most mornings, now that I work from home. I do frolic around the garden and play with the dog though :D

    Yeah, I think that argument's been firmly established already, but since 'feminism' is still a dirty word in our patriarchal society, I'd imagine most guys arguing that it isn't so. What infuriates me more than anything is when men start explaining to women that they aren't discriminated against. It's like a slave owner telling a slave 'I don't know what you are complaining about'. Just because he 'doesn't know' and 'doesn't think' doesn't mean it isn't happening.
     
  10. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    It's interesting how, when we talk about Inuit or Indian or South American tribal culture, all you ever hear about is preserving it. When people immigrate, they say they want to preserve the culture of their homeland and we all say they should, and how wonderful it is. When people travel they go to see ancient cultures, and we like to rabbit on about how wonderful a treasure it is to keep those cultures alive. Yet western cultures receive the statement you made. Maddening.
     
  11. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    I think it has to do with the fact that western culture is in no obvious danger of disappearing. Western culture has conquered the world through English language, British colonialism and Hollywood. Just because we have a Chinatown, or Jewish area, or Indian areas, or even Birmingham (joking!) doesn't even come close to 'endangering' British culture on the whole. Some overlap between cultures has to exist if we want to preserve cultural diversity, and the only way to ensure minority cultures don't drown in a dominant culture is to protect them. The dominant culture on the other hand is already everywhere, so a small area in which another culture encroached on it doesn't endanger it in any significant way. If western culture started disappearing, or if you were a westerner in say, China or Russia, then your western culture would have the status and protection that their cultures have in your country. And I know first hand that many non-western countries are just as careful about multiculturalism as the West is.

    On the other hand, feeling a bit like a minority sometimes, or feeling like your culture is under threat is a good feeling. It helps you to empathise with all the non-English speaking people on this planet who have been feeling a bit like that for a while now (especially the French :p)
     
  12. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    But that doesn't appear to be their point. Their point was that culture is fluid so preserving it is futile, unless, it seems to me, a culture is exotic to us.
     
  13. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I agree. I think sometimes we forget that.
     
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  14. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    @Selbbin : I wasn't referring to their point as it was made, but to what I thought was the spirit of their comment. But you're right, it does seem that way somtimes.
     
  15. Robert_S

    Robert_S Senior Member

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    I'll still concede that women tend to engage in a more body deforming ritual. Scientific studies show high heels are damaging to the foot. I don't know about the make-up issue, I thought that was safe enough, but men and women have their grooming rituals for mate attraction.

    I've seen pictures of Jersey Shore "performers" Snooki and Sammi with minimal or no make-up and they looked good compared to with their full make-up. It's a beautification ritual taken to the point of detraction.
     
  16. Lae

    Lae Contributor Contributor

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    Thinking about all that's been said, shouldn't we be teaching our kids to be confident in themselves? Be strong willed and driven? To ignore the people that try put them down. Self belief is probably one of the most amazing feelings you can have.

    I try to impart a little bit of wisdom on my niece and nephews, I've always been a confident person, sure people have called me many things but the only opinions that matter to me are my own and my loved ones, and so I can shrug them off before their comments even pass their lips.

    I don't think it's about complimenting someone, making them feel good or loving them unconditionally, it's about teaching them to have a foundation to build on, something that will never crumble no matter what the pressure.

    I think that's the key to improving the next generations.
     
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  17. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    To tell you the truth, I'm not fretting about any cultures, big or small. Then again, Westerners have invited a mixed culture: Western nations have colonized countries left and right and it's never a one-way street, the cultural influences always bleed in both directions, so if we wanted to keep our cultures "pure," we shouldn't poke around other countries to begin with. When have Inuits attacked and conquered other nations en masse like e.g. the Brits? What's more, it's kinda pathetic to whine and complain when people immigrate and bring a part of their culture with them; at least they aren't taking over our countries by force like westerners have done for several countries and nations.

    So yeah, pardon me for not shedding tears for our culture (which isn't going anywhere anyway, it's just changing shape).


    Yeah, they stand out, but usually not in a very positive way.


    By having a beautiful, healthy body, a product of hard work and dedication (no cosmetic surgery, steroids, or starvation required). Then you can wear pretty much anything and you'll stand out. In fact, a beautiful girl with a beautiful body in comfortable / practical clothes (for example, nice jeans, t-shirt, some decent jacket, sneakers, hair on a simple pony) will always attract attention but it will have a higher chance of being something else than cat calls and drunkards asking "how much?" because she doesn't look like she's trying to attract attention. It's much easier to command respect when you look good while you look like you're not trying to.
     
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  18. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    then do it. That's my point. Although there are plenty of "healthy athletic people " who still don't look that attractive. Most people's bodies and faces just aren't that great, sorry( we can go right now and find any number of professional athletes who are not going to ellicit arousal)Many men have the advantage of being able to gain muscle, which is seen as attractive on men but not as much on women, though a brawny woman will certainly stand out.

    Sorry guys, the simple truth is most people are not naturally beautiful, will never be so. It's airbrushing , make up, photo shop and surgery from there.

    Is it twisted? Yes. Don't I prefer a natural healthy woman? Yes, if she was blessed with good genetics. Then will say wow shes sonnatural, so down to earth, its like shes not even trying! Other people have to cheat.
     
  19. Duchess-Yukine-Suoh

    Duchess-Yukine-Suoh Girl #21 Contributor

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    Without the high heels and other...things, I'll play devil's advocate here and say that I do want my future guy to work to impress me, at least a little bit.
     
  20. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Supporter Contributor

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    @123456789, luckily even fashion rags are starting to move towards a more natural look which, imo, is a good direction since it's pointless trying to reach that IRL airbrush -look anyway.

    Besides, you have to have an eye for beauty. If you do, you can see something beautiful in just about everyone. That is not to say that you wouldn't have a personal preference, but that's beside the point.

    Fact is, unless you're trying to please those who do want that real life airbrush job, almost anyone can look beautiful without heels, designer dresses, or cosmetic surgery. If you encounter a person who still won't like you because you don't look like their favorite pornstar... why would you want their attention anyway?
     
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  21. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Agree to an extent. Almost anyone can look beautiful, yes, if the observer has an eye for beauty and an imagination. Presumably we don't all have the luxury of getting to eat prime grade rib eye every night, and we enjoy our Choice and our top rounds. However, there is that near perfect beauty somewhere out there, just waiting to make everyone else pale in comparison. Maybe not such an issue, were people confident, accepting, and happy with themselves. But look around you. Our culture is narcissistic, jealous, competitive. Everyone wants to believe that they're the smartest, most successful, most beautiful, and FB is fairly evident of this. People don't want reality. Reality isn't plastic surgery, and it isn't cosmetics, nor is it forcing everyone to some ivory tower belief, where we say "everyone is beautiful," even if we were to transform everyone into conscientious artists with high imaginations (because there's always that great genetics person out there). Reality, in my mind, is being happy with yourself even after accepting that person A is more attractive to more people, smarter, richer, whatever. That's what we need.

    You can apply this argument to school. Not everyone is Standford material.. Yet we shove our kids into Kaplan (or whatever they use nowadays) make them slave away incredible amounts of hours, force them to learn the flute and join the chess club, all so that they can perceived as being as smart as the guy or girl with the naturally genius IQ.
     
  22. jazzabel

    jazzabel Agent Provocateur Contributor

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    You obviously have quite a particular taste when it comes to women. I don't know you so I can't presume anything, but in my experience, guys who go for the 'cover of the magazine' look are either: a) young and inexperienced; b) high flyers who view a woman as a trophy; c) body obsessed guys like some long distance runners or gym aficionados; d) male models/actors/celebrities and other image-focused people and e) pathetic lonely guys with impossibly high standards who think ill of women because they are 'stuck up bitches who won't give them a chance'. That's my experience that is not necessarily representative but it's all i have to go on.

    But as someone who has a clinic which, amongst other things, does botox and injectables, I can tell you a bit about natural beauty. It is tragic how skewed the attitudes to female beauty are amongst younger males, who now came to believe that magazine covers and tv are 'natural beauty' and yet, they wouldn't know a real beauty if they saw her in a tracksuit and sneakers running on the street, or pushing a pram, of if she's pregnant or even older. They wouldn't even notice her because she isn't displaying herself in a particular way.

    If you can imagine not being bombarded by those images form the youngest age, not being told that 'every real man would get off on this' which implies that if you don't like 'this' you are not a real man, but instead if guys grew up in the world where non-airbrushed and non-plastic women were portrayed as desirable, then sure, some guys would still like the plastic look but many less than now. Maybe. I think there would be a massive difference. When I did clinical work, I used to see beautiful people all the time, who admittedly didn't look like a cover of a magazine, but they all had something very pretty and unique and interesting about them. But they berated themselves as not good enough, because that's become a female mantra these days.
     
  23. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    He's not going to work to impress you when standards of both males and females have dropped to an all time low. Sadly, being as young as you are, you're absolutely going to see this. Your generation of men and women are going to look uncannily alike. Your (in the plural sense) social skills will be abysmal, and you'll probably all be working way too hard to pay too much attention to courtship anyway. On the bright side, you'll be able to do all your dating from the couch!
     
  24. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    This is probably true, and makes up basically the best and worst of male society, as you'd expect. For the record, I never said I don't appreciate real women. This is about the image at the top, the one everyone strives for.
     
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  25. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

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    Sorry, statistically speaking most people are not beautiful or ugly, they're average. Like I told T. Trian, everyone wants to see the natural beauty, and will appreciate her when she comes, despite social conditioning. These people don't go unnoticed (although they may not be as noticed as the made up girl, granted). My question to you is, what's the problem. That naturally beautiful girl (rare as she is) is going to get by. The made up girl who hogged half the stares, so what about her? Now she gets a chance at the lime light too!
     

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