New info on the shooter. http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/343354,vatech041607.articleprint He might have been visiting from China with a student Visa. No terrorist connections have been found currently.
My relative was a cop. While answering a domestic disturbance, he knocked on the front door, and a man shoved a shotgun in his face and fired. It killed him in the line of duty. Another relative was cleaning an "unloaded" gun, and shot his own stomach. He was fat so he survived. Right about now, you are probably thinking that I am anti-gun. Far from it. Study your history. Not to many years ago, it was common for a BOY to go hunting in the woods. Audie Murphy, WWII's greatest hero(that we know of) grew up hunting for food. It is not about the guns or the easy access of guns. See, men like to blame everyone and anything else but themselves for their own sin. Some of you are tuning out now, right? Before guns it was swords, and after guns it will be atomic bombs or something. Did you hear about the guy who drove his car into a daycare? Man, I guess we should severely limit cars. Car violence. Car deaths. Car shows. Do you get my point. It is never the object. The object is only as dangerous as the wielder of it. Google city statistics. Look up Washington, D.C., Chicago, and other places that break the law, true law, to make certain guns "illegal." You will find a sharp incline in violence and of all things, crimes involving guns. Australia recently banned nearly all guns. What happened? Crime went up 400%! Literally. Some guy in this board was mentioning the changes in London, and how they got rid of certain guns. Yeah, and now knife violence has risen. The shooters at Colombine broke about 18 laws to do what they did. Oh yeah, and they killed kids. Do you really think they would obey one more law? Oh, but right about now some of you are saying, "But if they didn't have access to those guns, because of stricter gun legislation..." What? And criminals won't continue to sells guns on the streets? If we pass further gun laws, then regular citizens will not be able to defend themselves or you, some citizens will become "criminals" by ignoring those laws, and the criminals will still have access, and the price will go up. To pay for them, they will have to steal more. I have an idea. How about we outlaw criminals. You know, just make crime less accessible. Stricter laws and such. When evolution is taught in schools, this doesn't help. People are taught, that there is no God, no truth, and no real reason to value life. They are taught that we are a cosmic accident, and not made in God's image. We are just advanced animals, etc. Do what you want. If it feels good, do it. Junk like that. Check out the information on the Colombine shooters. When he shot up the school he had a shirt about evolution, and they wrote about it. He asked that girl if she believed in God. And then shot her when she said, "Yes." The fault is not with a car, a weapon, a knife or a tool. It is with man and man alone.
Something I just discovered. It throws the whole gun control debate into some new light. http://www.bloggingtories.ca/btFrameset.php?URL=http://diogenesborealis.blogspot.com/2007/04/va-tech-shootings-gun-control.html&title=VA%20Tech%20shootings%20&%20gun%20control Good night
I liked your response up until this point. Heres what really happened with that "Do you believe in God" question at Columbine. http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/salon.htm You have to read a little ways before you find out exactly what was said, but it was in a totally different context. As for the rest, that is one way to look at evolution. But its not the common view. Just because atheists and evolutionists believe we are accidents, doesn't mean "do what you want" and don't worry about the consequences. The way I and many others look at life, is that what we do has consequences here and now. The only ones looking over our shoulders is ourselves, and the people around us. So we could do whatever we want, but how will it affect the victims of our actions, those people we care about, the people in authority, how we see ourselves? I don't believe there is an omnipresent being waiting to throw me in a fiery pit for eternity if I do something wrong. But I don't go out and lie, murder and steal. Because I was taught compassion. I was shown by my parents how these things hurt people around me. There are times when lying, stealing, and even murder MAY be called for, but I know how I would feel if someone did these things to me or someone I care about. So I choose when to lie very carefully, and it would have to be a life or death circumstance before I choose to steal or kill. Now some people see the lack of a God to mean there is no moral compass. The only way to deal with them is through education, laws, and our reactions to their actions. But please don't flatter yourself in believing that a belief in God will make the world a better place. A fair number of religious people have used their beliefs to maim, murder and terrorize. Every idea, philosophy and religion has its ugly side. Stereotyping all of it because of these evil people is short sighted, and almost always ends badly.
Thank you. But HOE has a point with his very last sentence: "[The fault] is with man and man alone." When a town is bombed by planes and hundreds die, is it destiny or fate or cosmic judgement? No. It's humans dropping bombs out of the sky. It's our fault. Involving God in this is rather stupid.
Your welcome. And you're right Ivan. I should have left that last line out of the quote. That was another part of HoE's post I really liked. Every person is responsible for their actions.
Here are two actuals play written by Cho Seung Hui, before he massacred the students (and professor) of Virginia Tech. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech8.html http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-page-6/20070417142609990001 Sucks he had to go out like that. He had potential. Some quotes were hilarious. On a more serious note, I believe he was molested as a child, as revealed in his scripts.
I live maybe 45 minutes away from Virginia Tech and during school the day it happened we were all freaking out, texting our parents to see if they knew what was happening, texting our friends at Tech to see if they were ok...it was probably one of the scariest experiences I've had in a long while. This guy is crazy to do something like this, especially since no body has found a solid motive for his actions.
yeah that would be pretty scary. I have never been in that situation luckily, but sometimes people don't have any motives for doing something, although one person once said that he got locked away and found guilty of committing a crime that he did not commit and then when he got out of jail he went and killed someone and said that he just wanted to know what it felt like.....now that is what I find scarey..... and I don't think anyone could ever make a statement that is any more to the truth. we are the one's that make the decisions at the end of the day, we each have our own minds, maybe it is time we started using them..... ~Torana
Sadly Religion in the cause of many killings. It seems to be the easiest excuse "Holy War" If God does exist and created humanity then why would he want us to Murder one another in such horrific ways? ~Raven.
That's flawed logic. You've assumed that just because we have the potential to kill means God would "want" us to kill. In no way is this the case.
ditto my 'amen!'... and that's a total lack of logic... if there is a god, you can't know that, daniel!... no one can... if there is one, he could just as likely be enjoying the carnage as not...
Schools (and other so called “gun free” zones) will never be safe unless there are armed individuals there at all times. These murderers chose places where there would be little to no armed response. In a Utah Mall, a would-be mass murdering terrorist was stopped by a concealed firearms permit holder; at the Appalachian Law School, a would-be mass murderer was stopped by two concealed firearms permit holders; in Pearl, MS, a would be student murderer was stopped by an armed assistant principle, etc. Bad people using weapons are only stopped when confronted by good people carrying firearms. The Israeli’s learned this lesson long ago and now have armed teachers and guards at every school. This lesson has yet to sink in with America’s “gun control is the only answer” crowd. Gun control only leads to more violence unless you have a police state. Switzerland has less gun control than the US and the highest rate of gun ownership (75% i.e. 3 out of every 4 people, including women and children), yet has less violent crime than “gun-free” Great Britain, Australia, or China...
Today’s Dilemma (Wednesday April 18, 2007) Who shall we cry for? Thirty-three in Virginia? Two hundred in Iraq? What’s worth more… lives of the privileged or those ‘kinda black’ who lack safe havens, live at death’s door every day, dying while buying food, or just heading home in their car, not far enough from a bomb… one of so many that not any of you who cry for your kind pay much mind to the toll… so wholly engrossed in what’s not even close to most of the total number of dead for whom tears are shed today? So, who do you cry for… those here, or those there? Those in your own country, where such deeds are rare? Or do you notice how others must live with the spectre of death dogging each breath? Do you care? (I weep for them all…my wailing wall doesn’t end at my door)
Its a fair comment but Im not sure i can agree with you on this one I've seen some of the damage belief in religion can do and though we are all very different. It for many is a way of excuses. Sadly BLACKSBURG, Virginia (Reuters) - Students expressed disgust and disbelief at photos and a rage-filled video diatribe sent to a television network by the gunman who massacred 32 people at Virginia Tech university. it's FREE and...I have been refused credit I am applying for a mortgageI want to improve my credit rating I have just moved houseI want to check it's up to date I want to check my credit scoreI have not seen it before I'm concerned about identity fraud Half-a-dozen Virginia Tech students gathered silently around a bank of televisions in the student centre late on Wednesday watching images of Cho Seung-Hui posing with his guns and video of him ranting against rich kids and debauchery. The package received by NBC News on Wednesday carried a postmark showing Cho mailed his rambling manifesto after he killed his first two victims on Monday morning but before he went on to cut down 30 more people in classrooms. "That's crazy. He kills two people and then goes to the post office and then he's ready for round two? It's creepy," said graduate student Nick Jeremiah, 34. The images and long monologue suffused with paranoia and feelings of persecution painted a different picture of Cho, a 23-year-old student who has been described by teachers and other students as silent and withdrawn. "He just goes on and on -- that's got to be more than he's spoken, ever," Jeremiah said. "I thought, 'well, he does talk.'" Devin Cornwall, 19, who watched the video in a dormitory room with two friends, said the gunman's hatred for rich children made no sense. "To me, that doesn't personify any Tech student I know. I always think of us as a blue-collar place," Cornwall said. In the video and an 1,800-word document, Cho railed against wealth and debauchery, portrayed himself as a defender of the weak and voiced admiration for the 1999 Columbine High School massacre. "You have vandalised my heart, raped my soul and tortured my conscience," said Cho, speaking directly to the camera and occasionally looking down to read his message. "You thought it was a pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenceless people." 'MENTALLY ILL' The messages added to an already chilling portrait of Cho from roommates and teachers who described him as a disturbed loner. Cho had been accused of stalking female students and was taken to a psychiatric hospital in 2005 because of worries he was suicidal. A Virginia court order issued at the time declared him "mentally ill" and said he presented "an imminent danger to self or others," ABC News reported. The shooting has rekindled debate over U.S. gun laws, the most lenient in the Western world. News of Cho's past contacts with police and mental health specialists raised further questions over whether anyone could have picked up warning signs. University officials and police have been criticised for taking too long to alert students to the danger after Cho killed his first two victims in a dormitory just after 7 a.m. CNN quoted from a search warrant affidavit on Wednesday that showed police suspected a different man of the first murders. The network said police had been told by a student that the boyfriend of murdered Emily Hilscher had recently taken her to a shooting range, and assumed he was the main suspect. They were interviewing him outside the campus when Cho began his classroom rampage. On the sprawling rural campus in southwestern Virginia, students were beginning to look ahead to Monday, when classes will resume. "It's going to be weird being back in class. We're still going to feel uneasy in big lecture halls, or crossing the drill field," said industrial design student Phil Padilla, 20.
A lot of interesting points are raised in this thread... I think I'll start with the one about God. The bible explains that God gave man (and woman) the Garden of eden to live in. When eve was tricked into eating the Fruit of Knowledge God punished both Adam and Eve by sending them from the Garden of Eden saying that with this knowledge they could no longer be so close to him. This is the point where man was given free will. Meaning god had to need to dictate what man does. So it is irrational to say that God is happy with how humans have turned out and revels in their killing and maiming each other. Why would he send his own son to sacrifice himself for man if he agreed with what they were doing to eachother? Next I shall cover the ordeal of banning guns. Yes, making gun ownership illegal will reduce the amount of injuries and deaths through misuse. There is no way to stop people getting hold of a gun and keeping it illegally if they really want one. This can only be made harder for them. And yes people will sustitute gun crime for other methods. But. If you get a knife from a local hardware store and go to a school to massacre your fellow students, how far are you going to get? Yes you may easily kill a few people and injure several. But from what I've heard most students were kept in their classrooms with the doors some how barred. It'll be pretty hard for a knife wielder to get into the classroom to hurt the people inside. With proper training, you can disarm someone with a knife a lot easier that someone shooting at you blindly through a door. Think about it. And now onto the whole "It was the kids own fault" issue. Of course he was the one that did it and he could have chosen not to (although that seems pretty unlikely now, doesn't it?) What about the people that lead up to this? Reading through the plays the boy had written, it is clear he must have been sexually harrassed as a child. He was a loner, yes. But who took the time to be friend him and get to know him? You don't see kids with lots of friends and a healthy background going around killing each other, do you? Kids like this need to realise that there are people that they can go to for help. People they can trust. Maybe if somebody had made the effort to spend time with him and take an interest in him he wouldn't have done what he did. (Edit) One more thing. What does it matter whether 2 people die or 30 people die or even 1 million people die? It's still a tragedy. I recall someone saying something along the lines of "33 people dead, all who had families and friends". I doubt the first two killings could have been avoided so late in the game. They must have friends and family. Would it be less of a tragedy if those were the only two students dead right now? No. (/Edit) Over and Out.
Alice the school was a gun free zone, but Cho kept the pistols in his dorm room. He was already breaking the law. Would having to buy a gun illegally have stopped him? Now here are some facts from the US, courtesy of http://www.bloggingtories.ca/btFrameset.php?URL=http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2007/04/guns-guns-guns.html&title=Guns,%20Guns%20...%20Guns "Crime rates(in Florida) involving gun owners with carry permits have consistently been about 0.02% of carry permit holders since Florida’s right-to-carry law started in 1989.(Read CC permit holders don’t commit crimes.) After passing their concealed carry law, Florida's homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below the national average and remains below the national average to this day. The serious crime rate in Texas fell 50% faster than the national average after a concealed carry law was passed in 1995. "Violent crime rates are highest overall in states with laws severely limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed firearms for self-defense". The total Violent Crime Rate is 26% higher in the restrictive states (798.3 per 100,000 pop.) than in the less restrictive states (631.6 per 100,000). The Homicide Rate is 49% higher in the restrictive states (10.1 per 100,000) than in the states with less restrictive CCW laws (6.8 per 100,000). The Robbery Rate is 58% higher in the restrictive states (289.7 per 100,000) than in the less restrictive states (183.1 per 100,000). The Aggravated Assault Rate is 15% higher in the restrictive states (455.9 per 100,000) than in the less restrictive states (398.3 per 100,000)." There are also the three cases That HoE already stated. Mass murderers trying to kill numerous people and stopped by armed citizens. Banning guns doesn't seem to help very much. Now for the 'kid', at 23 I don't consider him a kid. He did get help. In 2005 he was stalking women. The police and police counselor talked to him, explaining how he shouldn't stalk women. They didn't charge him, they explained things to him, and offered help. Almost immediately afterwards his roommate called for help when Cho was potentially suicidal. The counselors once more talked with him, and seeing his situation sent him to a psychiatric hospital, because he was a danger to himself. They gave him counseling, and medication for his depression. Then believing he was on the road to recovery they sent him back into society, with the understanding he would continue seeking help. Following this, an English teacher saw how he acted in her class. She talked to him, and various people in charge, but to no avail. She was afraid to have him in her class, but there were no overt signs of danger. So he was removed from the class but nothing else happened. Now as a 23 year old, unless there is a solid case for fearing that he would inflict violence against himself or others, the system can't do anything. So all of the counseling, medication, and attempts to talk by roommates, teachers and police did nothing. He had help, maybe not as much as he should have, but there was help. It was forced on him at one point, and offered freely at other times. He did not accept it. So unless we want to throw people in mental wards if they show signs of aggression, or non-conformance, we have to accept that some people will explode. It sucks, but do you have a better idea.
Domoviye, you are just repeating my point of: So I agree. It wouldn't have stopped him. Him being one person. But perhaps it would stop some people. I don't consider putting someone in a ward and giving them a few pills help. And if you really want to help someone you don't STOP helping them. :s
How would you go about helping him? He was suppose to continue going to counseling sessions. People offered to help him at various times. The police did everything in their power to help him. Should we have had his neighbours watching him every moment to make sure he didn't cut himself? Police drive him to therapy sessions? Had his medication monitored to ensure he was taking the daily dosage? What should we do? How far can we legally go before the person snaps simply from being watched all the time? Now as for banning guns to stop a few people. Show me a country where that has actually worked? One country that has banned guns and the violent crime rate has actually dropped.
Wow. They were bastards. Still no reason to go on a rampage. And it doesn't disprove the fact that at least some people did try to help.
Help? That's not what I call help. Help is when you listen to what others are saying, insteading of sniggering and calling him names. If they didn't do that, there might've still been a chance.
