President Donald Trump.

Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Link the Writer, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    12,977
    Likes Received:
    5,597
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Right, because we were the ones who voted for a clearly racist, sexist, homophobic bigot who is working on/just repealed Obamacare, thus rendering millions without insurance so God help them if they get anything more than a little cold.

    Yes, we can go overboard with our PC/outrage culture, forcing everyone and their grandma to apologize publically for every little thing. Yes, the whole culture of white-guilt and making white people hate themselves for things other white people did has gone off the rails. That said, at least we try to be inclusive to all people. WE THE PEOPLE. Remember that phrase? It's literally in our Constitution. Also "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." That came from our Declaration of Independence.

    What boggles me is that you conservatives claim to love this country so much, you love our ideals so much that you're willing to die for it...yet the stuff you do in general, the stuff the Republicans do...what Donald Trump is doing... it goes so outside of what America is supposed to stand for. We Liberals aren't perfect, but at least we're trying to adhere to what's literally written on the two most important documents in the United States of America.

    We're not the one who voted in a man who sees women as walking vaginas, a man who is willing to cut funds on PBS, healthcare, programs for the disabled and other needy people. We're not the one who voted in a man who imposed a ban on several Muslim countries, leaving countless desperate refugees stranded in a country that doesn't want them.

    We Liberals may not be perfect, but at least we're not trying to drag America back a century (or more) by our misguided beliefs. You need to think about what's in the best interest of all the people in America, not just think about why you may hate certain minority groups and ways to piss off the other party. The only way we can be united, the only thing we can do to actually make the friggin' word in our country's name be legit is to put our differences aside and work together for a better future for all Americans. 'Cause this? What's happening right now? It ain't gonna help anyone. If anything, Trump divided America nearly clean in half politically wise. If there's a silver lining to all this, at least we don't hate each other enough to want to wage war on each other like we did in 1861.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    jannert likes this.
  2. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    7,307
    Likes Received:
    3,887
    @Link the Writer

    The Clinton campaign was incredibly divisive. As a result, they lost. It's up to the people who got their man to hold him and his friends accountable and to see beyond the divisiveness that both parties are responsible for.
     
    Dr. Mambo and Oscar Leigh like this.
  3. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
    I wasn't suggesting you have to be but those were just easy examples of places they might gather. Of communities with such a leaning. Conservative Baptist churches and wealthy circiles are places that align with some of their main demogaphic. Gun store owners, or coal miners, or certain kinds of farmers would also be demographics for the Republicans.
    On the note of the college thing there are certain examples of colleges with rampant political correctness and bias, and it does seem to be upsettingly common, but the division is not on one side. You just need to find a different thing to parallel, not colleges.Hyper-partisanship is not a partisan problem and to pretend it is pretty heavily partisan
     
  4. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
    I think being offended by people disagreeing with you is exactly what you are upset about those college people for. And they would argue you they're fighting agressive discriminatory voices and you would argue you're being pressured by social power. You know what? You're both kinda right. I don't like Milo Yiannopulous man is a troll and a bully, but he's a trol people shoudn't take him seriously. And yes social pressure happens and bias happens and that's everywhere on everything. It just depends how you're looking at from what angle and to what bias and social pressure you find.
    Also, on the matter of the safe spaces thing, I think you sorely overestimate your fellow conservatives. There's a lot of brooding potential for all kinds of snowflakery. Remember that article about SF conservatiges hiding? Isn't that creating a "safe space" for their politics? Where was the eivdence they were actually going to get beat up? Any snowflake can pretend their under great threat. Because snowflakes are negative; disagreemebt is inherintly threatening they expect hatred. But the reality is they hate different opinions that's why they expect others to do the same. That's why when conservatives defend against partisanship it's almost always a weapon against liberals. Becaue snowflakes hate other snowflakes more than anything else. As hysterical negativity and partisanship grows they see more people like them and it only confirms their views of how bad "they" are. Data shows that America isn't getting more fanatical in their loyalty to their side, they're getting more fanatical in their hatred of the other one.
     
    Megalith likes this.
  5. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    435
    Location:
    Michigan
    Like I said: if conservatives are put in charge of the public schools and colleges, and begin indoctrinating instead of educating their students, and mass-ban speakers due to political difference and promote cringe-inducing "safe-spaces" as well as a non-academic atmosphere, I will criticize them.

    I don't care if the division is on one side or not. I'm telling you who is largely responsible for it currently. I'm not telling you only that party is responsible. Again, I'm saying who is largely responsible for it currently.

    So yeah, I already agree with you. Hyper-partisanship is not exclusive to the left wing. Which is exactly why I said that if - more like when - the right is doing it, I'd criticize them as well. Left and right wing are of the same bird, which is why I think the two-party concept is *deliberately* divisive and outdated.

    With all due respect to Mr. Link above, that is exactly the kind of ideology I'm speaking of. It's just a slew of slander about Trump as far as I can tell. If he'd stick to factual claims, such as the one he made about Trump and his repeal of Obamacare, a dialogue would actually be possible. But instead it's like he's turning a crank attached to his head on one-hand and typing out the dogma with the other.

    To say that the Left was "only" sticking up for the Constitution is as dishonest as saying the Right aren't sticking up for it at all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    Oscar Leigh likes this.
  6. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
    I think that having more recognition of third parties would decrease the tribalistic feeling of two warring sides. In Australia we're substantially more chill about our politics than America. You guys have a break down everytime you elect a new President. But I'm not quite if you could attribute it to stronger parties. I think so but I don't know.
     
    Link the Writer likes this.
  7. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
    As I said, if you want a right-wing parallel look somewhere with a right wing atmosphere. Religious groups for example would have plenty of examples that are blatantly socially conservative.
     
  8. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
  9. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    435
    Location:
    Michigan
    I'm less concerned about certain religious groups, than I am of the public school system that *all* future generations are legislatively required to go through (unless you can afford private schooling). A serious political-bias in the academia of the country is far more worrisome. That's why it's the first thing infected by any sort of ideology, Right / Left wing or otherwise.

    Well, additional parties would certainly alleviate the problem. But you're treating the symptoms, not the cause.

    Part of the reason why people get all wrapped up by who's President is because the position has so much power now. Well, government as a whole, for that matter. But it's because there are advertisements ran non-stop that distract people from the other 66% of their government, until they have to be reminded that Congress and the Supreme Court still exist.

    Bring a foreigner here and he or she might mistake the President for a supreme-dictator, with the way people treat the oval office.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
    Oscar Leigh likes this.
  10. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    435
    Location:
    Michigan
  11. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    12,977
    Likes Received:
    5,597
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    Hmm...this is true. Both sides can (and do) abuse the Constitution to their whim and act like they're only doing what our Founders would've wanted or whatever.

    And you are correct, the culture of outrage and social media has made it so that it's impossible to see just exactly what Trump stands for. While I still don't like the guy, it does pay to bear in mind to try and examine both sides of the issue (though easier said than done, I know.)

    As far as public schooling is concerned, I don't know how it is now, but back in my day, we were taught 'AMERICA FIRST! AMERICA FOR TEH WINZ!! AMERICA RULES!! YAAAY AMERICA!!!' It'd have you think we were the only ones fighting the Nazis and the Japanese (much to the understandable ire of the other nations -- after all, they were fighting too, and for much longer!) and barely brushed at all the shitty things we've done. So yeah, in my day, it was heavily biased. There was no teaching that we're no better or worse than any other country, here's the good we did, here's the horrible shit we did, etc.
     
    Oscar Leigh and Foxxx like this.
  12. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    435
    Location:
    Michigan
    There is still some of that in schooling. At least in my experience, I had teachers trying to convince us that we "needed" to get involved in the Ukraine, and were rarely "negative" about the US as you said, and also rarely "positive" about other countries like China or Russia. In reality they should be fostering an open environment of *discussion*, rather than indoctrinating their students.

    I do not know which side of the political spectrum those teachers may have fallen on. But I'm glad that you and I both seem to agree, if I'm not mistaken, that philosophy and politics (as a couple examples) should *not* be about "what to think". That's where the public education system gets it wrong. They treat these kinds of subjects as if they were math, where "this is how you do it, and you *will* do it this way, and you *will* get this answer."

    Would be much more beneficial if there was a greater focus on studying *all* the schools of thought, and *guiding* students in their own individual "journeys". Sounds kind of crack-pottish saying it that way, but what I mean is people need to learn how to think for themselves and come to their own conclusions. They also need to focus on skills required for forming arguments, speaking, listening, compromising-- hell, debating in general.

    In a democracy, where the free exchange and *questioning* of ideas and speech is so integral, how the art of debate can be entirely glossed over if not overlooked entirely is beyond me.
     
    Oscar Leigh likes this.
  13. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
    If you want an example of right-wing safe spaces behaviour look at Trump fans reaction to Megynn Kelly a noted moderate independent when she gave him ONE challenging question. Little snowflakes couldn't handle someone doing a proper interview and actually challenging their views. Meanwhile Anderson Cooper the gay CNN reporter ask Hillary Clinton "will you say anything to get elected?" and presenting her with her stance shifts. No mass liberals call for his head. Huh. Almost like fearmongering about the media 24/7 makes people have dramatic and emotional reactions about it.
     
  14. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
    Seeing as university is supposed to be where it gets academic, the colleges SHOULD be doing that debating thing. And I'm sure many of their employess do teach the academic approach. It just the dickheads and idiots and louder so they get news stories.
     
  15. mmarage

    mmarage The Detective Contributor

    Joined:
    May 4, 2013
    Messages:
    1,650
    Likes Received:
    358
    Except for the fact when their talks are protested to a degree that takes it too far, (Such as going inside of the talk and disrupting it, or even stealing the stage under the threat of violence, attacking people who are associated with them or support them, intimidating people who are merely trying to go there to listen, and of course wasting emergency resources by pulling fire alarms in order to shut down the speech, they're also restricted from using their own private security for the event because the college security typically does little to try and quell these things) then there's the rioting, such as with Berkeley and Trump's inauguration. Then there's ANTIFA, that terrorist group made up of middle class LARPers living in their mother's basement, who go around labeling those on the right or even people who simply disagree with the far left as "Nazis" and using that as a justification for political violence. I've even heard from several media outlets and individuals in the far left that it's okay to punch a "Nazi" because they are a "Nazi", and if you disagree then you're a Nazi sympathizer. Hell even some left wing college professors may use their position of power in order to intimidate or outright silence their right leaning or centrist students by saying that if they disagree, then they will fail their class.

    As for the "white victimhood", they are the only race that you can get away with openly being racist against. If you call someone out for being a racist bigot against white people, then you're just being a reactionary bigot that's trying to shut the voices of minorities down, even if said minority voice says something along the lines of "White lives don't matter, kill yourself". You consistently have large outlets such as MTV and Buzzfeed making videos aimed directly at white people, typically men, basically stereotyping them and making them out to be complete pieces of garbage. Hell, they even try to move the goalpost of racism by claiming "Racism is Power+Prejudice and only white people have power so you can't be racist against white people", basically justifying the racist attitudes and beliefs that they hold and misrepresenting reality. Hell, the BBC, a government regulated TV outlet which is funded by TV licenses paid for by British citizens discriminate against white people by creating jobs that are specifically for anyone who is not white, I'm pretty sure that in their ads they essentially say "Whites need not apply".

    Personally, I don't think that anyone is a victim, I don't think that anyone is really oppressed in Western civilizations. Some people have a shitty lot in life, others have a better lot in life, and there are several legal protections in place wherein people cannot be discriminated based on race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. and typically all have equality of opportunity. They either succeed or fail on their own merit, that is not to say that sometimes unfortunately there is nepotism, favoritism, or even racism involved in choices, but those are not the norm nor are they really accepted. Is racism, sexism, or any of those other "isms" and "phobias" that the far left like to throw around willy nilly gone and that anyone in a position of power holds none of these beliefs? Hell no, and anyone who says otherwise is a fool, it will never be gone, and sometimes bad people get into power. (As we saw with Clinton. ;)) One cannot ever fully kill a concept, hell, take one look at the Flat Earth Society, that concept is still around even though it is widely known and accepted that the Earth is round.

    However, for the most part, our society is far more tolerant and being a bigot is typically frowned upon. Any action based on bigoted beliefs is punished unless it is merely speech which does not incite violence or is a malicious lie with the intent of trying to financially harm or otherwise unjustly punish the person receiving this treatment, which of course is fine because Freedom of Speech is perhaps the best right that we have here in the States. Even if it is something which is truly despicable, they have the right to say it and the first amendment is not to protect popular opinions, but unpopular ones. We do not live in an white supremacy, we do not live in a patriarchy, no one is really oppressed. Is our society perfect? Nope. Can we do better? Yep, but spreading hysteria and outright falsehoods, and trying to silence opinions that one does not agree, rather than meeting them in open debate and trying to debunk them, is wrong.

    The far left has become increasingly authoritarian and it needs to stop. They are losing and will continue to lose because people are sick of their bullshit, as a result the rest of the left is being dragged in because when most people think of the left, they think of these whiny cry-bully gender studies majors who riot and cry whenever things don't go their way or someone says something mean or disagrees with them. They've lost in Britain, they've lost here in the States, and they may very well lose in France (Go Le Pen!).
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
    Foxxx likes this.
  16. jannert

    jannert Member Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,661
    Likes Received:
    9,505
    Location:
    Scotland
  17. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
    Le Penn, is... not good for France. I'm pleased that she removed the blatant racists from her party and made the platform more respectable. But I'm still not going to agree with her. Or trust her to be humane with refugees. It was the centre right here in Australia that put them in torture conditions. Not Pauline Hanson. So, nah thanks.
     
  18. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
    There are still legal problems with LGBT, and complicated economic and social factors than contribute to black poverty. No, no-ones "oppressed" but it's certainly closer to it than an entire ideological umbrella being oppressed.
     
  19. Dr. Mambo

    Dr. Mambo Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Messages:
    525
    Likes Received:
    517
    Location:
    Iowa
    Oh please. Fox News is openly derided, and it's outnumbered 5 or 6 to 1 by the other major networks that are all biased in the other direction. And just because some conservative strongholds exist doesn't negate the fact that anti-conservative bias has permeated virtually every aspect of popular culture. No liberal, even one in the most conservative of rural areas, has to put up with the other side pontificating to him/her via television shows, sports commentary, talk shows, awards ceremonies, news, and everything else nonstop, whereas I can't even turn on ESPN anymore without hearing some blowhard talk about social justice.

    I don't give a shit what they're offended about or how vehemently they disagree with me. I can handle myself. It's when they start lobbying to make rules, policies, and laws that affect me that I begin to care. Chasing a conservative speaker from campus and rioting in the aftermath, as people did in California not that long ago in response to Milo, who you mentioned, should frighten and offend all of us. That kind of behavior is a precursor to legal action against free speech.

    Brooding potential... Yet you never see any of it. When's the last time conservative college students chased away a feminist speaker? When's the last time Republican protesters invaded a Democrat candidate's rallies and started trouble? When's the last time a conservative group tried to silence another political group by accusing them of "isms" until they capitulated? This just isn't a phenomenon you see from both sides.

    I don't live in San Fran and have no desire to ever set foot in California for any reason except the beach, so I can't speak to whether SF conservatives' fears are legitimate or not. I can say that I don't experience the same fear, and for that I am thankful.

    That's the best you've got? Trump supporters' reaction to Megyn Kelly is evidence of conservatives safe spacing? And lol that you think it doesn't happen the other way around. You must have missed the reaction to Matt Lauer's commander-in-chief forum.
     
    Foxxx likes this.
  20. Dr. Mambo

    Dr. Mambo Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Messages:
    525
    Likes Received:
    517
    Location:
    Iowa
    1. Obamacare rendered me without insurance and nearly cost me my job, so phooey on the people who are going to lose their (really shitty) health insurance as a result of the coming changes. It'll be better for all of us in the long run if we can actually buy insurance that does anything.
    2. The principles of equality this country is based on are about equality of opportunity, nothing more.
    3. This country has never been united except perhaps for brief periods during times of war. Setting aside our differences and working together is a dream. Political division is reality. And the founders intended for it to be this way.

    But okay, just for the sake of this discussion, let's say what we need to do is set aside our differences and work together. First step: You acknowledge that Trump won fair and square, and you agree to give him a chance. Sound good? No? Well, welcome to the real world. A world in which I sincerely doubt you ever once talked about setting aside our differences and working together when Obama was in office and the Dems controlled Congress.
     
    Foxxx and Oscar Leigh like this.
  21. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    12,977
    Likes Received:
    5,597
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    @Dr. Mambo - I'm willing to accept Trump is my president, you're not going to see me marching in the street holding a sign saying 'NOT MY PRESIDENT', that doesn't mean I have to like the guy. As far as Obama, well I was leaning more toward John McCain until he picked Sarah Palin as his Vice President.
     
    Oscar Leigh likes this.
  22. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
    What about in your conservative rural town you have people who refuse to listen to "lamestream" media and you have local newspapers and reporters who are conservatives and veryone goes to church where they preach conservative social views. The town is heavily white and there are few if any people who are openly not just straight-cis. Would this not be a very conservative bubble? Wouldthere not be examples of bullying and such in such an environment? Of the local institutions equivalent to a liberla college even acting on it? Perhaps you don't see this stuff as much because nobody's looking at dumbfuck nowhere, Arkansas, with 300 people but they're all looking at developed cities in the populous states like Berkely, California.
    Um, on the matter of incidents Trump supporters have been involved in numerous riots and altercations. Soo.. Also after Obama won there was a spike in hate crimes with some reall, really conservative people attacking black people because they didn't want a black president. Arseholes, arseholes everywhere. They don't mean shit to a point about the broader group. There were significant numbers of people who polled as viewing Obama being black as a negative aspect in their considerations for voting. 4 percent said it made them less likely to vote for him. You want to own those people?
    Also, Matt Lauer's thing was because people thought he did a bad job. He spent a lot of time in his Clinton interview on her scandals but didn't call out some of the thing's that Trump said. So while it seems slightly picky given they were short interviews, it's not the same as being offended that Kelly dared to ask a challenging question. And didn't involve doxing threats.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  23. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
    Why John McCain?
     
  24. Link the Writer

    Link the Writer Flipping Out For A Good Story. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2009
    Messages:
    12,977
    Likes Received:
    5,597
    Location:
    Alabama, USA
    I was 19 at the time, and I felt John McCain had good military experience enough to be our president. Then when Obama started preaching about change, I swung to his team.

    Oh, and it's ARKANSAS, mate. ;) :p There is no state of Arkansaw within the United States. :p

    But yeah, you're right, there are plenty of deep conservatives who will absolutely refuse to listen to liberals. They dish out plenty of their own insults as well, believe me. I've seen both sides fight on my Facebook feed and they sound almost exactly the same. The only difference is that one side thinks Trump is the savior and the other thinks he's the Devil incarnate here to destroy all that's morally good and decent.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
    Oscar Leigh likes this.
  25. Oscar Leigh

    Oscar Leigh Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,919
    Likes Received:
    2,479
    Location:
    Inner West Sydney, Australia
    Oh yes I forget than it's spelled differently than pronounced.
     

Share This Page