Would it be better if i wrote all four books and finished them and then send it to the publisher? That way they know when and how the story ends and they won't lose as much money if it flops? (I'm going to make sure it doesn't, but just for realistic scenarios) Because i thought of what you said but there would be too much left unanswered if i only did one book; since it's around a very costly war that is too massive to be over in one simple installment. I would tie the knot and resolve conflict for each book, but there's no way i could get my characters to complete their overall quest and end the antagonists if the publisher only wanted so much. Characters should be developed in the first book and progress further in each installment, learning and changing completely. Character development, Worldbuilding, Correct Pacing, Plot Development and Action are very important.
If you're seeking the traditional publishing route, you'll go through an agent and the agent will modify your submission as needed to make it apply to publishers. In my experience, agent-publisher submissions tend to be a lot more casual and phone-call based rather than formal query letter situations, so the agent can explain the situation and answer questions, etc.. For now, then, I would title the book in the way that seems most likely to get you an agent, and I think that would be to call it just "Redemption". Once you've got an agent you can explain the larger universe. (And the publisher will probably change your title on you anyway!) Your gent will explain the possible risks of different contracts to you, but be aware that most large publishers aren't going to allow you to publish work in the same universe with a different publisher, at least not for a certain time period or until they've had rights of first refusal. So while they may not buy the whole series from you all at once, they may take steps to ensure that you can't publish it anywhere else. Again, though, you can discuss this with your agent.
Again, assuming you're talking about a large publisher, you're going to be submitting to an agent, not the publishers, and the agent will develop a strategy for submitting to publishers. So really what you need to worry about is getting an agent's interest. I have no idea how to do this with a single story that's four books long. I think it's going to be a significant challenge. Maybe you could find examples of similar books in your genre and figure out who represents those authors? Really, though, I'd recommend restructuring your story so the first book CAN stand alone, at least somewhat. You don't need to write all the way to the end of the whole war - you could set up a subplot, like... getting soldiers to the site of a major battle in time, or something, and all the obstacles that get in their way, and when THAT is resolved, that's the end of your first book, even though of course there's more fighting to do. (I'm trying to remember how the first book in the PowderMage series ends - I think it's something similar to this. They've achieved their immediate goals, but we all know there are larger problems still waiting).
Not being allowed to publish my other work from a universe that is scary. lol I thought about just calling it redemption, but I thought that sounded bad. You don't think so? I might be a bit far away to be afraid of conditions of a contract I suppose. But then again right of first refusal doesn't seem so bad. I would of course want to continue working with the same company I think. Keep it all in house, plus I would want to give more product to the people that helped me. Do you think it is weird if I publish a backstory/side story of a random minor character before the main story?
I don't love the title "Redemption", but again, the publisher will probably change the title regardless. It's just a placeholder right now. Right of first refusal is fine as long as you've enjoyed working with the publisher. It can be a problem if you haven't enjoyed working with them. It can also slow things down to match their publishing schedules - if they want a book a year and you can write two, there's going to be a backlog! (And I wouldn't think of the relationship in terms of them 'helping' you - neither your agent nor your publisher is bestowing charity by representing or publishing your book. It's a business relationship - you're helping each other). I can't really say how it would work to publish a side story first. Is it a compelling, self-contained, rich story that deserves to be told? Will it win you a readership? If so, great, go for it. Otherwise, it shouldn't really be published before or after the main story.
Fair point Also fair point. I am sort of new at this. lol. Figured that a publisher saying yes means it goes into the world. Saying no can stop that. So it feels in my mind like help. I think it is compelling. A few people on here saying they don't like the genre said they liked my writing . Then again maybe people on here are too nice. Win a readership? Not sure if it is that good but I think it is a rich story that is compelling. It is definitely self contained beyond 1 or 3 things it would actually be impossible to connect this to my main story. lol. I find you use or before or after funny. A lot of people thought it was well bad to release something like this first because it would taint the order of events. I thought that was moot since it is so self contained Its posted on here well opening 2 chapters if your ever curious. Thanks for the feedback, you brought up some nice points
@GuardianWynn - I could be wrong, but I don't think it can hurt if you state that The Order is a stand alone novel, and there's also a completed stand alone sequel. Either that or just don't mention there's a second book. @BayView who's been published traditionally can correct me here. @Fullmetal Xeno - If you flooded an agent with 4 manuscripts before they've even agreed to reading the first one, I think you'd just be shooting yourself in the foot there. Send the query and sample chapters, and if the agent requests the full MS, then send the full MS. And if the agent's interested in working with you, then tell them you actually have 3 more completed books in the same universe. An agent who's interested in selling your work would likely be excited by that. An agent who hasn't agreed to represent you would probably ditch you straight to the recycling bin if you sent them 4 manuscripts without permission lol.
Yes -- if you're going the traditionally published route, you need an agent. And an agent doesn't want you to send him 4 novels. He doesn't even want you to send him one until he asks you for it. He wants a blurb of what it's about and then 5-25 or so pages. If he wants more, he'll ask for them. (You can check for the specific guidelines of how many pages, etc. an agent wants -- usually they're on their website.)
Many publishers (and agents) want to know if you have more than one novel in you. Most would prefer a standalone novel, even if it's the first in a series. One of the first things my publisher asked was what else I've written or intend to write. That was when I pitched the sequel to my first novel. If you intend to be 'traditionally' published, I would recommend writing that first novel in the series, and maybe get a good start on the second, but then move on to another project. Why? It takes a lot of time (that varies from writer to writer) and effort to write a novel. If the first novel in a planned series won't sell, investing a lot of time in #2, #3 and #4 may not be the best use of that time and effort. If the first can't be sold, then the others won't likely either (unless you can submit them as their own stand alone). You might consider that working on another novel (series) after the completing the first novel in the first series. Thus, when you finish that, you'll have the opportunity to have two novels seeking a home with a publisher. However, with the ability to self-publish, the novels written in the first series would have the opportunity to be published, just not in the 'traditional' route. So, with respect to that, the situation and reasoning is far different than it was even a dozen years ago.
Just curious, TW. How much time do traditional publishers give you to turn out your 'next' book, providing they take you on for the first book? I have this horrible suspicion that it's not a lot of time at all. Fair enough if you're a fast writer. But if it took you 10 years to write your first book, are they going to give you 10 years to produce your second? I've seen so many writers whose first book is fabulous, then their second is not, ditto third, etc. I wonder if their writing mojo has simply petered out ...or whether they're put under pressure to produce results long before they're ready.
That's why I thought of writing all four at once to maintain my focus and make all four very high quality and prestine in it's way of delivering the story. If the Agent notices it and likes it, that's four big sources of income for them in the long run. For the rest of y'all, these responses are extremely helpful and enticingly apparent for me to be able to accomplish my goals. I want what's best for the publishers, agents and of course the story. I want to make a real killer in the market and be fascinated by what I created and see what I can do in the future to expand it's universe later on and possibly have other authors to implement their stories within the universe to have a Star Wars gallery going on and still keep it's consticency and canon by following the guidelines that I wrote down. (Which I've also started.) I have plenty of other projects too, so going back to work on it again won't be a problem. I'll probably focus on my screenplay and poetry if I get too frustrated or feel a need to separate myself to gather more captivating depth into what I'm slowly crafting.
Sorry, you weren't asking me, but... this is going to vary depending on genre, publisher, author's status, and how hard the author's agent negotiates. In my writing for smaller publishers, I usually had the second book written at the same time I subbed the first, and they tended to release them within about three months of each other. In a recent situation I hadn't written the later books that the publisher wanted (hadn't planned to write them) and the publisher wanted the second one in about six months, the third one six months after that. These are YA romance, so short and pretty straightforward to write, so those timelines are generous. If I hadn't been able to agree to that schedule I would have told my agent and she would have gone back and said I needed more time. With Penguin, similar situation - I wrote one, they wanted a contract for two. (Agent says they want a series they can keep running as long as it sells, but they only committed to two right off). They asked if I'd be able to get the second one done within nine months, I said no problem. They asked this before they made the formal contract offer - I don't know what would have happened if I'd said I needed more time, whether they'd have lost interest or not. Again, though, this is for romance, and romance authors tend to be very productive so publishers (and readers) are conditioned to expect that. If you look at George RR Martin, it seems pretty clear that his publishers have either given him no deadlines or he's blown right through them. There are certainly other examples of authors taking a lot of time to put out sequels. So I think it's going to be pretty hard to get a firm answer on this. As a reader, though, I'll say I've never waited more than a year for the next book in a series - I just lose interest and find something else. And I'm pretty much done waiting for GRRM's next book - I can't remember the characters and no longer care what happens to them. So the publishers may not be wrong in trying to keep to a pretty close publication schedule, at least based on my sample size of one.
Yeah, that's kind of what I figured. So it makes sense, if you're a 'slow' writer, to maybe have a couple in the bag before approaching an agent? I suppose you don't have to tell the agent you've got them 'done,' but it might be a good idea to have them ready for a final edit. Of course you'll risk spending lots of time writing several books if the first book doesn't get taken on, but presumably you're writing for the love of it anyway, right? At least that way you won't need to bat through your sequels at a pace you're not comfortable with. As for George RR Martin ...I suspect he's a casualty of this pressure, actually, as well as his own (admitted) tendency to go off on tangents. Of course he's such a popular author his publishers have already made a fortune from his books, so I don't think they're particularly bothered if he misses his deadlines now. They'll still make more money off him eventually.
Jannert, It varies from one publisher to another, but generally at least one book a year is the minimum preferred. I think things are being compressed as readers prefer even faster releases for a series. My publisher needs lead time to arrange for editing, cover art, ARCs, obtaining blurbs, some pre-release marketing, etc. Usually a 4-5 months lead, letting my publisher know when the manuscript will be ready. Of course, it has to be a quality work, and has to pass muster, so it's not a guaranteed thing--not a 'just write it and it'll see publication.' Another factor is sales. If sales are poor, well, that slot in the publisher's release schedule is harder to obtain. A book released is an investment in time and resources by the publisher, and there are far more manuscripts my publisher (a small one) with authors seeking a contract than can be accommodated. I can say that my publisher is waiting for my next novel's manuscript, the sequel to my first SF novel that's sold very well (at least by small publisher standards). My sales are not like those expected by some major publishers. Instead of counting a novel's sales in hundreds of thousands, yearly sales of my different novels are counted in the hundreds and thousands. In truth, I'm an upper midlist author with my publisher, not nearly a top seller. I will point out that many authors with small publishers don't go with only one publisher--putting all of their eggs in one basket. But that's another thread discussion.
Reading through this thread has been interesting. As a writer who just finished his second work(I'm an amateur writer though I did finish writing a novel before, but I did not want to get my first one published) and may want to write a second book, this thread has answered some questions I had about sending a publisher sequels. Especially as a new author. Though to be honest I don't think I want a "series" more than two books, I don't know if you can call that a series. Would a publisher be okay with that from a new author?
I'm just guessing here, but I reckon if a book is a success, your publisher will certainly want more. But only AFTER the first book is a success. Your initial story must stand alone. (Unless your name is Joe Abercrombie. His first book was definitely NOT a stand-alone, and a publisher took him. However, The Blade Itself was stunningly good....) You can always leave issues unresolved, as long as the story comes to a satisfying conclusion in the first book. By "issues unresolved," I mean perhaps you end the story with the protagonist taking a new direction in his life, or something like that. It would make a reader who loved your story want more, but at the same time it wouldn't be a cliffhanger ending. From a publisher's point of view, I imagine it's a lot easier to market a sequel, if the first book is popular. So they won't mind getting more books with the same characters and settings. They're probably happier with that than a huge change in tone and direction—your first book is a fantasy, your second book is a literary fictional autobiography, and your third book is a collection of poems. As to whether you have WRITTEN more than one book when you first approach a publisher ...well, I think that depends on how fast you write. As @TWErvin2 pointed out, the gap his publishers want is a year between books. If you find that hard to do, it can't hurt to have a couple of them under your belt at the start. Just don't tell the agent/publisher that you've already written the second—and third. Etc. I presume you may have some clout in negotiating more time between books, once your books have proven to be good sellers. But I expect at the start of your career, you'll be expected to produce on demand. I know that would bother the heck out of me. I write at my own pace, and it takes a while to edit it properly. I would hate to be rushed. A book a year? Not a chance. Not for me.
Thanks for this post. Its really helpful. As for the bolded paragraph, I'll post one tiny detail from my story. The main protagonist kills another main character, but he/she gets captured in the end. Does that count as a cliffhanger? As for a book a year. I did finish my first draft in a year, but again first draft which needs to be edited. PS: Have you had a book published? I ask, because you seem very knowledgeable.
First of all, no I'm not published. That's why I said at the start of my post that I'm just guessing. My novel is 'finished,' but have decided to take the self-publishing route for several reasons. My book would be hard to sell to an agent because it's not fashionable and it's way over the accepted length that first-time authors need to keep to, in order to get an agent to look at their work. However, it's been edited down to just over half of its original length, and I'm satisfied that the story is now the length it should be. I'm in my mid-sixties, live on the wrong side of the Atlantic to effectively market my book, and quite frankly, can't be bothered. As long as the story gets 'out there' for folks who want to read it, that's good enough for me. If I were starting out, wanting to build a career as an author, however, my attitude would be much different. I would be more mindful of following the 'rules' in order to get my foot in the door. As to whether your story idea constitutes a cliffhanger....without knowing more, I'd say yes, it does. Ending with your protagonist getting captured sounds like you have more story you need to tell. Unless the reader is happy to walk away never knowing for sure what happens next, you've written a cliffhanger. If your protagonist's capture feels like the rightful ending to your story arc, and one that will satisfy your readers, then it can stand alone. However, if your reader's reaction will be "Oh, NO ...you can't end HERE!" then you will need to tweak it a bit to get a publisher interested. Unless your name is Joe Abercrombie, and this is Groundhog Day.
