Questions about plagiarism and copyright

Discussion in 'General Writing' started by blubttrfl, Jul 2, 2007.

  1. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Lying, dog-faced pony Marine Supporter Contributor

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    This might be one of them lawyer questions, in which case I'll just bin the line, but-- Well, lemme just put the segment in question in a quote block. The speaker is Satan, Queen (Satan is female) of Hell, etc.

    It's obviously pulled from Santa Claus is Comin' to Town, but it substantially different (use of profanity, the fact that it refers to Satan rather than Santa) so I think fair use parody should apply. I know no one here is a lawyer in a professional capacity on this forum, but if anyone knows of any links that could help me sort out whether or not something like this would fly, I'd greatly appreciate it.
     
  2. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I don’t have links, though I may be able to find some. The thing is, issues like this are resolved on a case by case basis.

    Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem with this kind of use. If it were my story I’d go ahead with it.
     
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  3. John Calligan

    John Calligan Contributor Contributor

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    Lindsey Ellis talks about fair use half way through this video. I have it set to play at the right time.

     
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  4. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I agree with this. I think the OP handled it fine.
     
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  5. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I want to include a line from a famous poem in a prose piece. I give credit and it's a short line. I don't know if it makes a difference, but the poem is really old. However, it is quite appropriate for the piece I'm working on. Can I do this or how can I do this? My piece will be published. That's already lined up. I just don't want to make an amateur mistake or look stupid. Literary criticism obviously addresses these sort of issues. However, this sort of writing is a bit new for me, and I'm not sure where all the lines are. Don't want to cross the wrong ones. I know people often say you can't quote things without permission, but when it comes to literary criticism it seems the rules are quite different, no? Any and all thoughts about handling these sort of situations are much appreciated. Thanks.
     
  6. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    if its more than 70 years since the death of the poet - possibly it depends on how the copyright was set up

    you also might argue that a single line from a long poem came under fair use
     
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  7. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Here's the thing... The rules seem sort of different for literary criticism and the likes. I'm not taking credit for something that's not mine. I am examining and expanding on a well-known and preexisting text. Does anyone have insight on this?
     
  8. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    'for the purposes of criticism' is covered by fair use - however it is important to be clear that fair use is a defence to the charge of infringement, not a guarantee that a case won't be taken

    Paging @Steerpike for a more learned and complete version
     
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  9. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    With respect to U.S. law...

    If the poem was published in the U.S. prior to 1924 it is in the public domain and you can do whatever you want with it.

    It if was published between 1924 and 1963 it may or may not be subject to copyright. It can be a pain in the ass to figure out whether it is, so it's often easier (and best practice) to assume that it is.

    If published after 1963 it is almost certainly covered by copyright.

    The rules aren't really different for literary criticism, it's just that literary criticism falls into one of the four factors for testing whether a use is a "fair use." That test is the "purpose and character" of your use. If you're using a copyright-protected work for literary criticism, that factors swings in your favor. Any "transformative" use swings heavily in your favor for this factor, and criticism may qualify. If you're using it merely as window dressing on a commercial work, that factor isn't going to help you much. But even if you're using it for purposes of criticism, you have to look at the other factors as well. If they all go against you, you might lose even if you're using something for the purpose of criticism. The other factors are:

    • the nature of the copyrighted work itself. Are you quoting from a work of fiction, for example, or from someone's autobiography in a piece you're writing about them.
    • the amount of the work you're taking, and how substantial it is. If you're quoting an entire poem, you're worse off than if you're just quoting one line, for example. Even if you're only copying a small bit, if it's so significant that it really goes to the heart of the work you're copying then this factor can still work against you. This latter point is probably something more likely to come up in relation to music than writing.
    • the effect of your use on the market for the original work. If the way you are using a work will tend to negatively affect the copyright owner's ability to sell his or her work, this factor works against you.
    A court looking at a fair use analysis will look at all the factors, though they may give strong weight to some and little to others. In recent years, whether the work is transformative became quite important, though it looks like courts may be backing off that a bit.

    Also, as @big soft moose says, "fair use" is a defense to copyright infringement. It can't stop someone filing a lawsuit against you, though in theory when they go to see an attorney about a lawsuit the attorney should be taking a fair use defense into account when advising them.

    You say this is lined up for publication. The market may already have guidelines or policies on how to handle this sort of thing.
     
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  10. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    In the U.S. and U.K. you can't assume something is in the public domain because the author is dead. Copyright term extends well past the death.
     
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  11. Iain Sparrow

    Iain Sparrow Banned Contributor

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    Thankfully, the vast majority of them aren't worth quoting anyways.
     
  12. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Here are two links that may be of help. Jane Friedman's article deals directly with quoting stuff from other authors. She includes many links to other sources of information. (She also makes it clear that quoting poems and songs is a very grey area.) Each country has its own set of copyright laws as well, which makes things even greyer.

    https://www.janefriedman.com/permissions-and-fair-use/


    This link regards copyright in the USA.

    https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-duration.html

    It can be a mistake to assume that it's 'okay' if the author is dead. Big mistake, if the copyright is still in force. @Steerpike is correct. It takes a good long while for something to enter 'the public domain.'
     
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  13. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    The way I've done it seems to be okay with my publisher. Literary criticism in't my area of specialty, but obviously writing about a piece of writing can easily blur the lines, I believe. Boss loves it and knows his sh!t. I honestly don't know how you would address literary criticism of any sorts without such an approach. This is very different than fiction or for other reasons such works could be quoted. It is at the center of the piece. Important. And I guess this is where a writer needs to put some trust in a publisher. My publisher is well established and knows the game. I really wasn't sure how this would be perceived, but I think I'm on the right track with this. I mean doesn't almost all if not all literary criticism rely on this sort of stuff. Again, these are very different circumstances than using quotes like this in a work of fiction. If anyone is interested in learning more about this, I'm willing to share more about my experience with this as things move forward.
     
  14. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    There are no special rules for literary criticism (at least in the U.S.). The Fair Use factors are the same. In fact, the U.S. Copyright Act specifically calls out criticism as an example of where Fair Use may apply and where those factors should be considered. The point with literary criticism is that you already have at least one Fair Use factor heavily in your favor. As long as quoting the work is supported by the criticism/analysis and the amount being taken is reasonable in terms of what is necessary to make the criticism, the Fair Use argument is going to be strong.
     
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  15. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    All literary criticism quotes famous works, doesn't it?
     
  16. matwoolf

    matwoolf Banned Contributor

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    Happy any ways, 'slong as we're not debating some 'In the end I made my decision after 5000 words "and I, I took the one less traveled by,' the end," END ending.
     
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  17. Steerpike

    Steerpike Felis amatus Contributor

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    I would think so. Or at least, works of some author (famous or otherwise).
     
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  18. Damage718

    Damage718 Senior Member

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    Hi everyone, new here (long time lurker though.)

    I write short fiction in addition to historical baseball features on my blog and for a local newspaper, and I have an interesting scenario here where copyright(s) may come into play, so I'm curious if this is ok. The editor of a local literature newsletter this is appearing in said it was fine, but I'm wondering on some views here, too.

    My short story centers around Ray Chapman, a real-life baseball player who was killed in a game in 1920. In the story, he awakens with amnesia in unfamiliar surroundings, and soon is confronted by his former teammate & manager, Tris Speaker (another real life player.) They soon emerge into a baseball field with lots of other long-gone players (you can probably tell where this is going now...)

    The setting is of course the field in Iowa, from the movie Field of Dreams (based on W.P. Kinsella's book, Shoeless Joe.) I don't mention the title Field of Dreams, and the only direct link to that story is when I briefly mention the character's name, John Kinsella at the very end. Every other character in the story is a real-life (now dead) ballplayer. It's obvious where the source inspiration comes from, but the story is a first-person perspective of what the ghosts who play on that field get to experience - something that is never fully addressed in the film or book. It's a look into the baseball afterlife, through the eyes of one person, building upon the book/movie world.

    It's all just a blend of fact, fiction, and my speculation. Is there any issue with this?
     
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  19. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    It sounds like a good book, and because all the stuff in it (I presume) happens after the players die, then there shouldn't be any cause for libel unless they are talking about stuff that happened to them in real life.

    My only concern is the link with Shoeless Joe and the character's name (from the book, I presume ...I'm not familiar with the story enough to know names.) I do think you need to research that one pretty thoroughly, as I suspect that book is NOT in the public domain yet. It's the kind of thing I would advise you to be careful about. I confess to knowing nothing about the kind of legality surrounding this sort of venture, but a few warning bells are going off in my head. Just be sure of your ground. If readers are going to make the connection—and you've hinted that they will—you could end up in some bother with it. Would WP Kinsella be happy about your idea?
     
  20. Damage718

    Damage718 Senior Member

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    Thanks Jannert!

    Mine is just a short (less than 4K words), and the only mention of the character from Shoeless Joe/Field of Dreams is when he introduces himself in the final scene. He literally has two small lines of dialogue. For those who have read the book and seen the film, the setting will be pretty obvious early on. But if someone read my story and HAD NOT read Shoeless Joe or seen Field of Dreams, they'd never suspect any source inspiration. It could be viewed as a standalone story, or an addendum piece, depending on if you've seen the film/read the book or not.

    But the idea of what the players experience was only glossed over in the book and film, so my story is a first-person narrative of that experience, using a real-life player who died in 1920. I took his death (he was hit by a pitch in the head and killed), and had him "awaken" in the present day afterlife, and he is led to the field. So it's just a little bit of historical fact, and then a whole ton of fiction and speculation in a world that Kinsella created - with one brief mention of a character's name being the only link.
     
  21. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Hi @Damage718 -- Is this along the lines of fan fiction? I don't quite know the rules around that, but I know a lot of people are into that. While I don't know any of the specifics around your characters and stories, I will say that I play around with using famous people in my short fiction and have never run into a problem. If you have a good publisher, they will know what they can and can't publish (or they should). And it does seem like you have a publisher in your corner. They are not going to want to publish work that crosses any sort of line. Their reputation is on the line just as much as yours.

    One of my first published short stories has mentions several famous people both living and dead. And that story has also been republished by another place. So, there were two publications that felt comfortable about how I handled it. I have another story where one of my characters makes out with a celebrity that is still alive and famous. Also, in that story was another famous person who gets in a fight with my made up main character. Again, no one had a problem with that. Trust your publisher. If you don't feel like you can trust your publisher, maybe that's not a place you should be working with.

    I think a lot of people worry about injecting reality into their fiction, but these sort of things can ground a story. People are going to know your story is fiction. And as fiction writers I feel like we can borrow, steal and use people, places and things from the real world. I do it all the time. And I am a professional writer. I have no problem asking by publishers these sort of questions, but I've never had a single one tell me I couldn't do something that I did in my fiction or any other sort of writing. Our inspiration comes from somewhere. You're probably fine, but your publisher should know for sure.
     
  22. Damage718

    Damage718 Senior Member

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    Hi @deadrats , fan fiction is a pretty accurate way of describing it, yes. Since the world is already established, and I just told the story from the perspective of a character I put into that world. But I never mentioned a link to that world until the very end, and even then, only people familiar with that world will even get it...if that makes sense?

    I often write short fiction that starts from, and includes, a real life event or person. I like blending fact and fiction in that way.
     
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  23. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I too like that blend. I'm a short story writer actively selling stories and have never run into any sort of problem. I think that sort of blend might be the ticket to selling some works. And if you're working with respectable publications no editor is going to put their neck on the line over a short story as you've described it. They would just reject you and move on. If you've sold the story, you're fine. Really. Take a deep breath and bask in the glory of publication. It's super hard to sell short stories. If you're doing it, a big congratulations to you. I mean it even sounds like you could leave out that reference and the story would still stand. Talk to your editor who is buying the story if it's really bothering you. That should put your mind at ease. But from one short story writer to another, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Stories don't get picked up by mistake. You've written something great that a publication wants to put out in the world. And that's really awesome.
     
  24. Damage718

    Damage718 Senior Member

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    @deadrats Thank you!
     
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  25. Flamenco1

    Flamenco1 Member

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    A couple of questions if anyone has a moment:

    1/ Is there any issue with using short material you heard on television?

    For example, a joke by Frankie Boyle on 'Mock the week' about witch burning and Dundee Town Hall, would fit really well into one of my dialogues. At the moment the character gives Frankie credit, but I'd prefer him not to recall which comedian originated the joke (if in this day and age it is possible to originate a joke).

    Would it be a good idea to give credit in footnotes? Or is it OK to have a credits section at the end of the book? Or is a credit just drawing attention to a possible problem?

    2/ A friend of mine is writing a book where the MC is from a recently finished TV series. He is basically taking the character from the series (a series he is very much a fan of) and continuing their life into the future. I'd have thought without permission this may be risky.

    Is it worth asking for permission? I once asked the BBC for permission to use 500 word sections from their published articles for educational purposes (ESL). Just wasted my time.

    Thanks for any thoughts.
     

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