1. Justin Attas

    Justin Attas Active Member

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    Questions for a Ghostwriter

    Discussion in 'Collaboration' started by Justin Attas, Apr 24, 2020.

    Here's something that never fails to rouse the crowd at gatherings,

    I was a ghostwriter for a little over a year. In that time I wrote 17 books for various clients. This blows people's (non-writer's) minds because, aside from music, there isn't really an equivalent service in other businesses. An agreed upon contract wherein one person does all the work for a lump sum, while a different party gets the credit and royalties? It's weird.

    People always have a thousand questions. I figured people in the writing community might have even more, and more insightful ones! So I'm opening up the floor for questions. Anything you ever wanted to ask a ghostwriter? Hold nothing back!

    Hope everyone is well,
    Justin
     
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  2. Than_urb

    Than_urb Member

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    Hi Justin,

    Thanks for the proposition and yes I have some questions for you :)

    1. How the hell did you ended up there ?

    2. Do you still write your personnal stuff aside ? If so, do you think it's helping or deserving you ? If not why ?

    3. 17 books !? Wow... and that's leading to my last question, which is for personnal use. I have ended the 3rd version of my first novel. My alphas and betas liked the characters, the style and the atmosphere but pointed out a lack of suspense. Do you have some tricks or tools to improve that (as I will write a 4th version focused on that precise point).

    Thank you very much man :)
     
  3. Justin Attas

    Justin Attas Active Member

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    Hi! No problem, I'm always glad to help out a fellow writer.

    1. I was looking for a way to make money writing instead of feeling miserable at my 9-5 dayjob. I subscribed to a lifetime membership with a website called Writers Work. It's like indeed but specifically for writing. I saw the ghostwriting position there. If you're looking for writing jobs, Writers Work is a great way to find them.

    2. I did still write my own personal stuff. I was going crazy without a schedule so I made my own. Ghostwriting in the morning, then my own writing in the afternoon, then filming/editing my writing help videos in the late afternoon-evening. Honestly, ghostwriting in so many different genres was a huge help to my own writing. Experimenting with different styles and POVs helped my own dramatically.

    3. I actually have a really simple trick for suspense. Dramatic irony. Works every time. When the readers know something the characters don't, it causes instant tension/suspense. A super simple way to do this, while also deepening your characters, is to show snippets of what your antagonist is up to. Don't give away his/her whole plan in these segments, but give some insight into what the main characters have coming to them. When the readers know a threat that your characters don't, they'll be on the edge of their seats waiting to see how they deal with it. This is especially true when you only divulge part of the antagonist's plan.

    Hope that helps! Let me know if there's anything else I can do! :)

    Justin
     
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  4. scorpia95

    scorpia95 New Member

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    Really? Everywhere I search, people call WeWork a scam because they simply aggregate job postings like Indeed.

    Did you have to show prior work before getting the ghostwriting gig? Did they give you a test/sample that you had to write to prove your worth?
     
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  5. Cdn Writer

    Cdn Writer Contributor Contributor

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    TRYING (!!!) to read Eric Flint's "Ring of Fire" series.......it's soooo many books!!!!!
    I'm wondering......I assume the story is "Person's" but he's not a skilled writer so he hires you to write the story as he tells it, making it....marketable? Fine. Why don't both of you go on the book as the author?

    "Story of Person"

    By: Person with Justin

    Wouldn't that be more honest and clearer?

    Second question: what happens when the book sells? Do you as the ghostwriter collect on-going royalties or do these go to Person only after he's paid for the initial work?

    Thanks!

    Scott
     
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  6. Justin Attas

    Justin Attas Active Member

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    Good q
    questions. So I used Writers Work- I've never heard of WeWork. It had a ton of writing gigs that I've never seen on indeed. Also, I told them up front I'd never been a writer professionally, but I had to submit a writing sample with my application. They were impressed, so they had me write a trial romance piece. They liked it, so I got the job.
     
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  7. Justin Attas

    Justin Attas Active Member

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    You got it right. The story belongs to "Person". Many of the customers use pseudonyms and operate as if they are the author. They basically provided a story "pitch" (a very loose idea) and I did all of the planning. I had to run my plan by them and, if they liked it, I wrote it. It was 98% done by me, but their name went on the cover. I was paid a one-time fee for writing based on wordcount between $500-$1200. After that, all royalties went to "Person" as the author, on paper.

    If it sounds unfair, that's what led me to leave the job. I was working endless hours to pump out books like no one's business, while having no time to spend promoting my own book. It was infuriating to see these people get 4-5 star reviews on something I wrote, while my book had none.
     
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  8. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

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    So, I guess the question for me with my adding machine is: 17 x $500-$1200 = $8500-$20400, do you document your writing hours, and did you come up with an estimate of hourly wage?
     
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  9. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    I think it happens all the time. Most building contractors have a variety of subcontractors to do most of the actual work on a job site, from the architect's plans to the final landscaping. Session musicians lay down their tracks and collect their paychecks but never see much in the way of royalties or credit. True, it may not be to the extent that ghost-writers experience.

    (Speaking of session musicians, there have been quite a few great documentaries on them: "The Wrecking Crew," "Standing in the Shadows of Motown," and "20 Feet from Stardom," for starters.)
     
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  10. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

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    Hah, this was my thinking too. I think the phrase is, "Ghostwriters... and every hourly wage employee ever."

    One of the frustrating elements of being in IT is that all my output is property of the shareowners. They get the million dollar patents, I get a salary.

    The entrepreneurship involved in writing is part of why it appeals to me, actually. Disconnecting my time*labour calculation from returns really appeals to me. (This is why I brought up the hourly wage calculation earlier - if I'm not making more than dog walking, I'm going to downgrade writing from 'business' to 'hobby' and treat it differently.)
     
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  11. Justin Attas

    Justin Attas Active Member

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    Yes, I did actually calculate my hourly wage once, with my writing pace. It worked out to $17 an hour. I'd typically work with no days off for 2-3 weeks at a time, for 4-5 hours a day (ghostwriting only).
     
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  12. Justin Attas

    Justin Attas Active Member

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    That was exactly how I felt. $17 an hour isn't bad, but it wasn't nearly enough for the amount of story boarding, outlining, and actual writing I was expected to do, only getting 2 days off every 2-3 weeks.
     
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  13. Laughing Rabbit

    Laughing Rabbit Active Member

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    Wow, and I had just mentioned on another thread that I was thinking of having a ghostwriter write my story for me (it'll never happen, I'm too protective of my story), and then I see your thread!

    You had mentioned that you're given a loose outline to work with, but what if someone like me comes along, with a very detailed vision/outline of what I want and expects you to write what's in my head? Would even the idea of working with someone like me send you running the other way, would it be simple, or would you see it as a challenge?
     
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  14. Some Guy

    Some Guy Manguage Langler Supporter Contributor

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    Did you take notes or chapters from WIP, or always start from scratch?
     
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  15. Cdn Writer

    Cdn Writer Contributor Contributor

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    TRYING (!!!) to read Eric Flint's "Ring of Fire" series.......it's soooo many books!!!!!

    The second part of the quote above, it sounds more like a collaboration to me. If you do that, do you both get writing credit on the book cover? It would seem almost like fraud if one person gave you 50% plus of the story and then got all the credit.

    Really, I'm not too sure how it isn't fraud if someone comes to you and gives you 5% of the story, pays you to write it for them, and then publishes it under their name. At the least, the author credits should say by: "______, with (or " and") _________" and after the expenses are paid, the profit should be split equally.

    Scott
     
  16. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    It isn't fraud if both people enter into the agreement voluntarily and sign contracts to that effect. Only if one person steals the other's ideas and presents them as their own.
     
  17. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

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    Nah, not fraud. It's a common model, it just is what it is. Somebody has high level ideas, somebody does some grunt work to turn it into product. Where's the fraud? Who's getting scammed?

    Think of all those Hardy Boys style series that were syndicated. F W Dixon is just a pseudonym for a couple dozen ghost writers over the decades. They were given anything in a range from a 150 word outline to a very detailed 15k word synopsis to work from, but paid by the word either way.
     
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  18. Cdn Writer

    Cdn Writer Contributor Contributor

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    So the deciding factor is the fact there's a contract between them?


    I would think that the reader/the public is getting scammed by thinking they're getting a product written by John Doe when it was actually written by Jane Smith.

    I would also wonder about the publisher, if they enter into a contract with John Doe for a book and the book is produced by Jane Smith.....

    Sorry, this is really new to me. I find it difficult to believe.....

    And, F.W. Dixon wasn't a real person?? I guess you're going to tell me that Carolyn Keene who wrote the Nancy Drew series was also a pen name of multiple writers....? I guess that explains how they wrote so many books - because it wasn't one writer, it was 20 or 30 different writers.

    Scott
     
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  19. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    The Doc Savage stories, supposedly all written by an author named Kenneth Robeson, were actually by a stable of ghost writers, all using the same pen name. Though most of them (and probably the best) were written by one named Lester Dent. Ghost writing has always been a thing. A lot of people have a good idea or want their biography written, maybe in the form of an 'autobiography', but aren't good enough writers to do it at a professional level. Readers will want to learn about them or be able to read the ideas, but hopefully written to a high standard. Hence ghost writers.

    As was said above, it's pretty much across the board in many fields that the low-wage laborers do all the grunt work while the people with the fancy desks at the top of the skyscrapers make the big money and get all the credit. If you earn a standard wage at some job, you're one of the faceless hordes participating in this pyramid scheme. Of course, the ones at the top also take all the risk, and are able to marshal resources the ordinary Joe in the street never could, so it's actually a pretty good system.
     
  20. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

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    Same problem as a pseudonym, though. I guess the question is: how is the consumer financially harmed by this?


    That is correct. Dozens of authors went by F W Dixon and Carolyn Keene and many, many other pseudonyms, typically one mythical author for each series. The list I linked to above were just for the Stratemeyer owned series, but other syndication companies are out there.

    A writer colleague of mine pays the bills by picking up per word gigs on ghostwriter for hire sites. Apparently there's decent money in centaur porn. And ad ghetto listicles! "Ten Best Left handed Bike Stands. Number Four Will Shock You!" I'll bet 90% of those are ghost written.
     
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  21. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Exactly, which is just like actors changing their names. Some don't want people to know how Jewish they are or how Latin or Irish or whatever (that was more of a factor in the 50's), or just have silly names.

    Like @Friedrich Kugelschreiber. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
  22. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

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    Not just that, but the union doesn't allow two actors to even *have* the same name. Plenty need to change their name because their birth name is already taken. And there's avoiding confusion with historically famous persons.

    Here's my favourite example of that: Bob Einstein's brother is Albert Brooks. Guess which one changed his last name?
     
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  23. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

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    It's a division of labour thing.

    I can't speak for @Justin Attas original motivation, but whenever I've considered piecework/hourlywork like ghost writing, it's because of the high probability of there being *some* remuneration. Low risk, but low reward.

    In contrast, the owner who farms out ghost writing is paying out of pocket up front and starting in the red, on the chance she can sell the finished manuscript for more than the cost of the ghostwriter plus her time and effort plus risk premium. The owner could end up in the hole, but the ghost writer cashed the cheque and paid rent and bought a pizza and is halfway through the next gig.
     
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  24. Cdn Writer

    Cdn Writer Contributor Contributor

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    Ok.....

    So.....I've got this idea that I'm struggling with. I've done all the prep, I know what the story is, where it goes, who the characters are, but putting it together is proving really challenging.

    Is that something where I am better off finding a ghost-writer or collaborator to work with me? I'm just wondering what people's opinions are here.

    EDIT: and how much it should cost. $500 is affordable. $5,000 is not.

    Thanks!

    Scott
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
  25. KevinMcCormack

    KevinMcCormack Senior Member

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    Not an endorsement, but colleagues I know who are making money ghostwriting right now are picking up contracts on https://www.upwork.com/.

    I suggest browsing there to see what the marketplace looks like, it may be more accurate than our opinions on this forum.

    EDIT: one of my friends just reminded me that the marketplace has been evolving into a buyer's market, so your pricing may be shifting to the lower end of that estimate range.

    Out of curiosity, what's the plan for the finished product? This leads into the collaborator/ghostwriter comparison.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020

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