Rejection, rejection, rejection...

Discussion in 'Traditional Publishing' started by deadrats, Aug 19, 2016.

  1. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Yes, yes! And then when we're drunk we can send queries or troll agents on Twitter.

    For the bingo card:

    --we're really looking for (insert unrelated genre)
    --we're not taking any new clients
    --our agency is on the verge of bankruptcy
    --I've switched agencies three times since you sent the query eight months ago
    --there aren't enough initials in your pseudonym to make this marketable
    --too many words that end in vowels
     
  2. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Figured I'd resurrect this thread since yesterday gave me a good example of the silver lining a rejection can have. I'd been waiting for this story to come back since the end of February. The rejection itself didn't go into specifics, though it did make it seem as though the story made it up to the last round. Anyway, thanks to the rejection coming in on Friday, I dealt with a couple pesky tense errors that slipped through editing and then sent it off to a market that closes on Sunday. A market I wouldn't have had a potentially suitable story ready for. That market will probably be a rejection as well, but at least there's a chance.
     
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  3. Pinkymcfiddle

    Pinkymcfiddle Banned

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    Yesterday I got my second restraining order from a publisher, but I remain positive.
     
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  4. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    I haven't seen @deadrats around lately - hope he's doing okay. Or she... I think I've assumed he's a he with no actual evidence.

    Anybody else on submission or querying?
     
  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I'm waiting to hear back about a proposal I put together, but that's only three chapters... not a huge investment of my time one way or another.

    And I think that's about it! It's been quite a while since I had anything on sub. Can't say I miss it!
     
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  6. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    The submission I noted almost a week ago came back as a rejection on Sunday. No suspense, at least. The editor said it was a perfectly good story, but didn't quite have the feel she was looking for. I reformatted it and sent it off to another market. This one provides personalized feedback in all their rejections, so at least I'll get something out of it.

    I'll admit, the "feel" thing is a little mystifying, since I've read the market in question (the Sword and Sorceress anthology series). There are stories in there similar to mine in tone. Guess I'll have to pick up this year's edition and see what I can glean from it on that front.

    Other than that, I've got a query letter for a short article. I don't know whether to expect anything on that. There's also a novelette that's been in weird limbo for almost a year. The publisher said that while the story had fallen just shy of making it into the anthology it had been written for, they'd still be interested in publishing it on their site. I sent an email saying that would be great, but never got a reply.
     
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  7. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    Got in contact with the market for that novelette through Facebook messenger, since their contact form wasn't sending right. They said the offer was still on the table, and to contact them again if I didn't get an email from them by the 18th. So...I guess that might be my fourth published story right there.
     
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  8. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Thanks for thinking of me. Kind of went off the grid for a bit. Writing a ton, though. I have probably gotten over a dozen rejections or so since I haven't been around. I got one that made it sound like I got somewhere close with someplace real big. When I read the rejection letter to some of my real-life writer friends they took me out to celebrate. This would have been life-changing, but the editors at this place seem to think I might have what it takes to write stories on the level or in the same ballpark as the writers they publish. It was probably the longest rejection letter I have received for a short story. Very specific about what they liked. No criticism. Just a request to see something else.
     
  9. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I'm updating my submission tracker to reflect the non-responders. I've got a few that were sent over a year ago and there are a few others that I submitted to places that say they only respond if they are interested that are getting old enough for me to mark off as rejections. Now there's like nothing left. I'm hoping to get out a dozen or so new submissions by the end of the weekend. It feels like I've been slacking when it comes to sending stuff out.
     
  10. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Form rejections hurt my feelings.
     
  11. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    It only gets worse!

    It sucks getting form replies but when you submit blind then that just comes with the territory, they get a lot of submissions and you can understand why they use form letters. If you imagine that you're someone just running your eye down a huge list of e-mails and only have the time to look at the ones that instantly leap out at you; you can understand how lots of them just end up hitting the auto reply button.

    The worst ones are definitely getting a form reply with no feedback when someone asked for a full manuscript. Like, you submitted and they wrote back and said yes we like the look of this, show us the full book. You send it to them, and three months later all you hear is 'unfortunately we won't be offering you representation'. No reason. No anything. We liked the sample and the synopsis but now we've read the whole thing we don't like it. Not even 'we don't feel this is right for us' or 'we don't think it's commercially viable'. I mean, they spent the time to read a whole manuscript but they can't even take one sentence to say what made them dislike it? Just nothing. Nothing at all. Not even any indication if I should give up on the concept and move on or if I can re-edit or what. Hell, if they didn't even read it couldn't they just say that?

    I wrote back, very politely, and said that I've heard before that my writing is good but my ideas are maybe too dark to sell and was that something she felt too. The answer I got? This kind of books often deals with dark subjects. Which deftly side steps any discussion of this book specifically and honestly made me think she just hadn't read the book. And if she didn't fine, busy people, all that. But it just feels so disingenuous.

    At least submitting in the dark is a scattershot thing. You have no idea if they would really like your book or not and so a lot of failure comes with the territory. But when you've gotten past that and someone says they do like the concept and want to read the book then won't take a single sentence to say where you lost them is just... That's awful.
     
  12. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    @LostThePlot -- I totally hear you. I've been through the query stage and I'm sure I will be there again. My submissions right now are all for shorter things, mostly short stories. I don't just submit blindly. I put a lot of work into figuring out where I want to send my stuff. When it comes to my short stories I think I care more about where they are published than if they are published. Anyone else feel the same way?

    But the no-feedback thing seems to be a common practice no matter what or where you submit. Not always but I get way more forms than anything else. Even a few lines of personal feedback provide very little more than the occasional confidence boost. It would really suck to have an agent or editor request my full novel only to offer a form response, though, I'm not sure what kind of feedback would actually help more than the confidence boost I get from hearing that my work was read, liked, considered, taken seriously.

    Sometimes rejection gets to me, like really gets to me. And I stop submitting. And the number of my submissions dwindles from 50-plus to a handful that remain likely never to fetch a response at this point. It's hard to keep a good number of submissions out there. I took a few months off from submitting and now I feel back at square one. I have dozens of polished and edited short stories just ready to go. But since it's been awhile I feel the need to give them each another pass and really make sure I am sending my best work. I've got some out so out so far and I feel really good about them. I'm not getting my hopes up, but I also know that my work is clean and without typos and grammatical errors. I'm just trying to give myself the best chance I can. The rest will have to be up to my actual writing and stories.

    I know the publishing world can be tough to navigate, but I'm not a fan of blind submissions. I want to publish certain places or I want certain agents because I know who the rep and I think I could fit their roster. Making submissions, I feel, takes far longer than it should. I don't want to invest my time preparing and sending out my work without having thought it through.

    That being said, of course, we can't read everything and can only do so much research and can use up all our favors and connections. There are places I have submitted to without having read more of what the journal offers online, but I do try to read and rotate my literary journal subscriptions so I can get a feel for as many as possible. I have submitted to agents when I probably should have done more research. I think back then I wasn't quite sure what I was looking for. My first agent (who never sold my book) was a disaster. He lives in NY and had a decent enough reputation. He was a small outlet, but had represented and sold works similar to mine. Still, we sure weren't on the same page or maybe even planet. Good luck with your quarrying.
     
  13. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    The first time that someone asked for a full manuscript the agent sent me back the following:

    " You have a lovely voice, and this is very affecting, but in the end I am just not 100% sure I can commit to it in terms of pitching the story. I’m at nearly full capacity already, so I have to be absolutely on board with any project, and I fear this one is not quite the right fit for me to champion at the moment."

    And exactly as you say, I was happy with that. Ok, it sucks to be rejected. But for an agent to say that they really like my writing makes me feel that I'm getting somewhere. At least that means I'm not crazy, you know? Because my description of my work would be pretty much exactly that; good writing with weird ideas that are hard to sell. And to have an agent say they think my writing is good and I have a good voice, that means a lot to me. Maybe this book isn't the one that breaks through but as long as my writing is effective then it's at least worth my time trying. Especially as a big bloke writing in the voice of a teenage girl; finding out that this reads as genuine is important to me.

    By 'blind submissions' all I really mean is submitting to an someone without having prior contact with them. Sure, you have ways to research what kinds of stuff they've accepted before and you can tailor how you submit, emphasizing specific aspects of your work but you're still just one of a crowd submitting with only public domain knowledge to work from. It's not 'blind' as such, but in the end you have no real way of knowing how they will react or even if the information you are working from has helped at all. Maybe the wrong person opened your e-mail and it was all wasted time.

    But I do agree that submitting takes far too long to submit. I've heard that in the US it's more standardized but over here I've seen so many different things asked for on submitting. It's bad enough to be having to specifically go and create a sample of their very exacting length (20 pages, 50 pages, 3k words, 5k words, 10k words, 1 chapter, 3 chapters) and sit and check that you haven't fucked the formatting or that your page numbers still work. But to have to sit and write seven different kinds of synopses of different lengths and different styles (what even is a thematic synopsis?) is a bit much. Can't we just agree on a one page synopsis? Isn't that ok?

    I don't mind tweaking my covering letter; at least there I can use mostly pre-written stuff. I have three paragraphs pitching the book that I use every time and I'll write a fresh paragraph for each agent/agency saying why I particularly think this would interest them. At least that's not too terrible, I think it's ok to ask you to write a hundred words or so fresh for each pitch. But before it's legitimately taken me a whole working day to put together a single query before because you have to be so paranoid about making mistakes and sending a bad impression. If you don't take the time then there's a good chance that no-one ever reads your work.

    I would also to like to request a pogrom against all agencies that have some kind of web form for submitting your work instead of sending them an e-mail. That's just bullshit.
     
  14. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I need to submit more. But I basically have a story pending at all of the markets worth submitting to that are open for submissions right now. I'm trying to work on a piece for the Saturday Evening Post, but did anyone see all that "America" talk in their guidelines. That and reading some of their stories made me rethink what I want to send them. I don't know if I'm going to capture "America" enough for them. Anyone know of some good places taking submissions right now that I might have missed?
     
  15. RWK

    RWK Member

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    The mainstream publishing system has always left me cold. Jumping through endless hoops, getting rejected...it all was just too much.

    So I self-published through Amazon five years ago. I've got fourteen novels in print now, and I've sold thousands of copies of my work. I'm by no means earning a living doing it, but I have earned in the low five figures.

    Have you considered the self-publishing route for some of your work?
     
  16. big soft moose

    big soft moose An Admoostrator Admin Staff Supporter Contributor Community Volunteer

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    14 novels in five years ,*whistles* are you secretly stephen king ?
     
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  17. RWK

    RWK Member

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    I had eight written and gathering dust on my shelves when I started self-publishing. So it has been six books in a little over five years. All fiction, none just astoundingly great stuff.

    My point is that getting a couple pieces of work self-published while working other projects through the conventional system would give an author more self-confidence.

    Myself, I've abandoned the conventional side altogether; I'm just not good enough at selling my ideas to real publishers, and frankly, I like the knowledge that I don't have to meet anyone's standards save my own.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
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  18. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    My concern about self-publishing is the need to make an effort to publicize myself and my work and that's something that I really don't want to spend my time doing.

    In fairness, I've written 10 in less than 4. 14 in 5 isn't intimidating to me. And I have to imagine that when you make the biggest chunks of cash when you publish a new book then there's a certain incentive to really knuckle down and get things finished.
     
  19. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    Surely that presumes that anyone actually buys your work...
     
  20. RWK

    RWK Member

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    If you can't sell in the e-book market, I don't believe you will sell in the conventional market.

    I spend about an hour a week pimping my work. I don't spend money on marketing, either.

    How much time is spent trying to secure an agent or trying to convince a publisher that you are the one to take on?

    Yesterday I sold 8 e-books and had 9400 additional KP pages read, which means roughly another 18 of my books read. That was a pretty good day; not outstanding, but solid. My profit margin is small because I don't care about the money, I just want people to read my work.

    The beauty of self-publishing is that people will read your work. You won't be rich or famous, but your work will be read.
     
  21. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    There's selling and there's selling.

    Sure, just about anyone can get a few downloads. But that's not even close to what I want. I don't demand a best seller but I at least want to make as much money as a part time job; I want something that I can actually build a career on. If I'm self-publishing the only reason is so I can take the sales figures from that to a publisher. And I'm not going to get any of that from small amounts of rookie marketing work.

    I agree that it's a lot of work to try to get published. But if neither approach is getting me anywhere then it makes little difference to me. At least submitting to agents gives me the reasonable expectation that should I succeed I'll make some amount of money. I have read way too many times of people who self publish who do everything right and just make nothing from it. And then they go to a publisher and get told they won't take a self-published book unless it sold really well.

    I agree that it's nice to get read. And it's tempting to do something that feels like getting somewhere. But from my point of view 'feels like' isn't good enough. At least if I don't succeed in traditional publishing I can try again with the same book. I can keep trying until I find the right way to pitch it or the right agents who might be interested. If I don't succeed in self publishing then that idea is dead and will never make me anything worth speaking of. It hasn't furthered anything.

    Yes, you need to get your work on the shelf in order to sell. But there's more than just getting on the shelf IMHO. And I don't consider just being on the shelf as success. In fact, in today's world, getting on the shelf in a self-published context is the easy bit. The hard bit is building a brand and a persona and a community around your work; it's getting noticed outside of the fairly small number of people who specifically seek out self-published work. The hard part is making your writing into your job.
     
  22. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    Anyone can self publish anything. It's really not the same thing.
     
  23. RWK

    RWK Member

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    I make several thousand dollars a year (after taxes) from my book sales.

    I'm not interested in a career as a writer; I have a career which I enjoy, and I do not need or want a second career.

    I'm not trying to sell you (lost) on the approach; I am just putting the information out there for the OP and anyone else who might benefit by it.

    Writers can continue to let their work gather dust and pray that someday a publisher will take a chance on them, and that that chance will result in sufficient sales to make their work a marketable quantity. That is certainly a tested approach to becoming an author.

    Me, I will sell books today. And tomorrow. And so forth. My royalties will pay for most of my next truck, perhaps all of it. This is also a tested method to being an author.

    It all depends on what you want out of writing. People can choose their own paths.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
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  24. RWK

    RWK Member

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    Publish, yes. Sell, no.

    Traditionally-published books fail, too.

    I am not suggesting that self-publishing is the route for everyone; your work has to be able to stand on its own against stiff competition. But on the other hand, your work reaches the readers. No more rejections, no more waiting to see if your craft will sell.

    It isn't for everyone. But it is an option.
     
  25. LostThePlot

    LostThePlot Naysmith Contributor

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    I agree with that. I'm just explaining why I don't think self publishing is the right approach for me, and honestly why I don't think it's the right approach for almost anyone.

    The bottom line simply is that I think my work is worth more than a dribble of income. And I may be wrong. But as long as I believe that I can't see a reason why I would ever accept that as being a success. As long as I believe my work is worth more then I have to pursue that. Self-publishing is a defeat in that case, taking less than market value just to make something. If writing is a hobby to you then by all means give it away for as little as you care to. But that's definitely not me.

    If you are good at something don't ever do it for free.
     

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