riots in Turkey

In our commune, they are still very communist/socialist - they came out in force for Hollande in last year's election - now they absolutely hate him. Our ville's population is about 2000 and they'd rather have The Taliban in charge.


To Madhoca - you sound really surprised at the Turkish police force, is this a new phenomenon of 'over-exuberance'?

 

Gosh, looks like some corporation stands to profit from destroying the park.

Everywhere is Taksim, Resistance Everywhere

Shopping and condos? Wow.

Here's a summary, I've shortened to keep to posting rules. The article is worth reading.

It's not about tree huggers, it's about disregard for the people's wishes. Are there supporters of the development, madhoca, the side that wants jobs and the mall and condos? Are there beliefs that the rich are profiting from land that belongs to the people?

 

Copied and pasted from an Istanbul student's blog. Full blog with pictures here
http://defnesumanblogs.com/2013/06/01/what-is-happenning-in-istanbul/

They gathered and marched. Police chased them with pepper spray and tear gas and drove their tanks over people who offered the police food in return. Two young people were run over by the tanks and were killed. Another young woman, a friend of mine, was hit in the head by one of the incoming tear gas canisters. The police were shooting them straight into the crowd. After a three hour operation she is still in Intensive Care Unit and in very critical condition. As I write this we don’t know if she is going to make it. This blog is dedicated to her.

 

Wow, this sounds a lot like the current US administration. Our President thinks that just because he won the election, he has a 'mandate' to implement everything he desires, with no compromise at all. If the people in this country weren't so uninformed, lazy and government spoon-fed, we would have riots too.

When more than 50% of the population recieves money from the government and our national debt is more than 16 TRILLION dollars, something has to give. If the liberals remain in power, the 'US government ATM machine' will continue spitting out free money to everyone until China turns off the spigot and there's mass riots in every major city all over the US. We're heading for financial disaster and yet we're still spedning like there's no tomorrow. I weep for our country.

Jim Powell said it best:

"It’s politically almost impossible to control runaway spending when people believe that government can continue making payments. As long as there’s any money in the lock box, political pressure will be overwhelming to spend it. The tens of millions of voters who receive government benefits – such as elderly pensioners, unionized government employees, solar panel hustlers and rich Wall Street bankers ‑ are likely to demonize courageous politicians who suggest the government can no longer afford to pay for everything. This is where we are now."

Sorry to get so far off topic but I feel that we here in the US will posting our own pots-and-pans thread soon.

 

Not sure if it is off-topic.

In France we have a situation similar to the US, Prime Minister and President / Senate and President. Either way, if the President wants to do something he has to go to the PM/Senate. I wonder what is the point of having a president if he has to go to the other side (when they it) for permission.

In Ireland and England we vote for one guy and he doesn't have to go anywhere for permission for anything. Sometimes a big decision will be leaked to gain public feeling but other than that they have cart blanche.

 

I'm never one to jump on the 'police brutality' bandwagon.

They are using tear gas, pepper spray and water cannons... They could be using bullets.

It's not the fault of the police, they are upholding the laws.

I feel sorry for the police, I mean, what are you going to do? Turkey is a democracy, so change comes by voting people in and out of public office, not by violent overthrow. So the police are ordered to clear the park. People refuse and attack the police with stones and rocks. I understand they feel like they are proving a point, but they are breaking the law and any harm or injury as a result of their protest, should not be met with sympathy. Also, it's just a park is not worth a single human life.

Or, as Carl Sagan said so eloquently:

"The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds."

 

Not really true. In UK you vote for a party, the leader of the party with most votes becomes prime minister (although not proportionally, therefore you can have someone running the country who has had less than 30% of the vote). He or she then has to get a bills through parliament (congress? in US, Assemblée nationale in france) and then through the house of lords (senate in US France). The difference is the head of state is elected in France and US (the President) they then nominate a prime minister to implement their policies. In the UK the Head of state is the queen. She has the power to veto quite a lot of bills and she and Prince Charles have been doing that for some time (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/14/secret-papers-royals-veto-bills)

Ireland is different from UK : they have a president.

 

The way the police act can have a dramatic effect on a crowd. In the 80's (under Thatcher) the police were directed to use tactics which instead of quelling violence, provoked it. Note: I am not blaming the police.

 

Not really true either. You cant equate anybody in the US or France to the QofE or the Pres of Ireland. The latter 2 are just heads of state, there to bring in tourism and not much else. Oh, they can dissolve Parliament. The Taoiseach (PM) of Ireland makes a decision and they go with it, much like Cameron. Whoever they have to go to, Irish Senate of House of Lords are not elected. Hollande and Obama have to go to the senate which is elected and may or may not be on his side. It has been revealed lately though that the Royals do have a secret power to veto http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/14/secret-papers-royals-veto-bills

now way off topic - apologies

 

I doubt very much the nice gentleman in blue came along and said "Ok folks, lets all go home, there's a bus due shortly, why don't you all go get on it"

Did you read that blog from the Istanbul student?

Excerpt - They came from all around Istanbul. They came from all different backgrounds, different ideologies, different religions. They all gathered to prevent the demolition of something bigger than the park:

The right to live as honorable citizens of this country.

They gathered and marched. Police chased them with pepper spray and tear gas and drove their tanks over people who offered the police food in return. Two young people were run over by the tanks and were killed. Another young woman, a friend of mine, was hit in the head by one of the incoming tear gas canisters. The police were shooting them straight into the crowd. After a three hour operation she is still in Intensive Care Unit and in very critical condition. As I write this we don’t know if she is going to make it. This blog is dedicated to her.

Full blog http://defnesumanblogs.com/2013/06/01/what-is-happenning-in-istanbul/

 

A friend told me the protests were something about the "last green space"

The more I hear about it the more I get confused...

 

This explains it quite well: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/02/turkish-protesters-control-istanbul-square
It started as a small protest about unpopular plans to build on a park, but has come to represent more than that: that (in the views of many protesters) one man (the primeminister) is not listening to the people, is silencing the media and is trying to change the constitution.

Democracy is NOT just about the right to vote. It is also about the right to protest, and to have ones voice heard.

 

Sorry, but a weblog written by someone representing one side of a conflict is going to be biased. We saw the exact same thing during the Occupy Movement here in the US.

I'm sure the protesters were first told to disperse or go home. Of course, they refused and the police had no choice but to remove them by force.

I'm not saying every officer acted the best way, but as is always the case in these situations, there's never a good outcome.

And it is ALWAYS, and I mean ALWAYS the poor protestors that scream police brutality to garner sympathy and support for their cause. The police don't post on blogs or use their cell-phone cameras, they do their job without thanks. People love to villify the police. Especially when they are wearing riot masks so it is easy psychologically to de-humanize them.

 

Who else is going to scream police brutality?

On this particular occasion they did their job with tanks - and killed three kids the first day.

Even if you don't read that blog, open up the link and see the photos. A young girl in red dress, alone, arms by her side being pepper sprayed by some very brave cops - no riot mask, no ulterior motive to demonize poor cops just doing their job.

You can't argue with the stories coming out of Istanbul or the photographs.

What I don't agree with is the property of those on neither side being completely wrecked, cars, shops, houses. Turkish cops though have been brutalising civilians for years. Every year Amnesty Intl are in arms against them - quick google will spew out millions of examples. A father of two kicked to death in a children's playground for not having his ID on him - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/06/turkey-human-rights-police-brutality

 

I'm sorry erebh, but I will not allow myself to partake in this blood-rage. From the sources I have read, there are no confirmed fatalities, yet you spout the numbers as if you were there yourself. You pick and choose the facts that suit your current feelings and your bias.

Besides, isn't the bigger question always the one never asked? We sit here and argue with the conflicting reports from the 'peaceful protestors' and the 'brutal cops' but the question remains... So what?

So what if the government is using excessive force to quell the protestors? It should sour the taste for the current administration and when election time rolls around, he will be voted out with a wide margin and the leader all the people love will take control, right?

I don't believe they want that at all. They are out for blood and would probably march on the capital if there was enough numbers. This started out as a small environmental protest but were soon joined by the unions, the gays, lesbians and every other downtrodden minority class with a chip on their shoulder and an ax to grind. Everyone of them would love nothing more than to see the government, aka the police kill someone. They will lay under trucks and tanks, they will stand and be pepper-sprayed for the perfect photo-op to rally the troops.

I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I also know enough about humans to know that they are very good at manipulation, no matter what 'side' they are on.

So go ahead and soak up all the bloodlust that they are plastering all over the web. Take every morsel they feed you as fact and above all else, trust everything you read.

All is not what it seems.

 

If you don't care, why are you even contributing to this thread? Just to turn up and proclaim "So what?"

And you want to talk about chips? Bringing in gays and lesbians? The unions? What's that all about?

Actually, I don't want to know...

 

You obviously missed the point of my post. My point was questioning the next step. What happens now? What is the endgame? That's what I was saying. I do care about this, but I also care about truth and seeing both sides.

From Alper Balli, BBC Turkish:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22732139

 

I don't know what you're showing me in that link but from Amnesty International - 2 deaths http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/10093974/Turkey-protesters-celebrate-after-police-leave-Istanbul-square.html

Erdogan is a US puppet, going berzerk to get into Syria, hosting US bases up and down Turkey, will sell his children to get his country into the EU.

Turkey is hugely important to the West, the only country that spans 2 continents, the western shield to the Mid East, muslims not quite extreme, get on most of the time with Christians both catholic and orthodox and willing to sniff out Assad's non-existent chemicals.

What next? I have no clue...

 

Warning for this video - shows graphic brutality - but nothing you haven't seen on the news lately

This just landed on my facebook - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vORIEIVABmM&feature=player_embedded - I don't know how many instances have been videoed the last few days but all are Turkish police. Some have been shown on BBC and other news channels today. If the 5 year old trying to revive his dead mother doesn't show you how barbaric these uniforms are nothing will.

Madhoca, a member here, living in Turkey says up to 1000 police have resigned - maybe some have a conscience after all.

 

Yeah I saw the part where that woman was killed by the police... Oh wait, it conveniently didn't show that.

You know what I see? A bunch of people fighting the police. Here's a tip for the people of Turkey: You fight with the police you lose. Badly. In fact, that's pretty much universal for any country with police. If you're going to fight with police or resist arrest, you're going to get beat down.

Seems like the police had their hands full and I'm glad none of them were killed.

 

ok...

 

You still don't get it, do you? The blog, the video? You still cannot see your being manipulated to someone else's agenda? How does it feel to give up control of your own thoughts? How does it feel to allow yourself to be manipulated by a skilled video editor? All those clips, do they show both sides or one? Do they show the initial confrontation that caused the ensuing arrest? No.

And seriously, who takes their 5-year-old kids to an armed conflict? Parent of the year right there. At least the Occupy crowd didn't bring in a bunch of kids to get beat down.

They wanted this. This is what they wanted. They wanted to resisit arrest, antagonize the police and then film it all so it lands on your Facebook and you say, 'That's terrible! I want to see the regime burn!'

But no, there's no such thing as objectivity anymore is there? People aren't reporting the news, they're fabricating it.

Truth is, I don't know what's going on there, and neither do you. But at least have enough common sense to know when your being manipulated.

 

^^ It was not armed conflict everywhere, and people live in these areas. That's why there were children around. People did not want to see mayhem. You have this wrong--or at any rate, you are talking about a very small minority. The protesters weren't even armed with iron bars or anything. Now the police have left the central area of Taksim, the protesters have spent the day playing music and clearing the place up.
There were literally thousands and thousands of people protesting in my city all day Saturday with no problems at all, but come nightfall various groups organised and started causing damage, and then the water cannons etc came out. This is from my friends who live in the hottest spots and saw out of their windows. Near us a group set fire to the party regional HQ for the PM's party. This kind of thing is not actually part of the protests of normal people. However, it's a fact that this whole situation would never have grown so big and country-wide if the PM had had the sense to back off earlier, to engage with citizens and to stop his piss-taking speeches on live TV on Sunday (a trifle late in the day). It all made a bad situation 10 times worse.

 

I think we need to remember a wise old saying: 'Passion governs, and she never governs wisely'.

This thread has been a bit heated, can we please tone it back a bit?

 

Democracy Now has good coverage of current events in Turkey today. You can view it online or read the transcripts free.

A Turkish Spring? Over 1,000 Injured as Anti-Government Protests Spread Outside of Istanbul

The full transcript isn't up yet.