Sally, a character maybe too pure?

So, in this story I'm writing. I have a character Sally. She has actually been a beta reader favorite but I got one comment that got me thinking. Which someone challenged her being too good or too ideal.

She is a 16 year old girl. She loves skateboarding and similar activities. She isn't flawless but she does seem to have a pretty good eye for emotional details. She seems to be good at spotting when a character is sad. And she's pretty good for saying the right thing.

But she fails at more academic things. She gets bad grades and a lot of things people see as common sense completely go over her head until someone says them to her.

She's energetic and compulsive.

But where the comment comes from. She forgives two people.
One tried to kill her.

The way she describes it. "Yeah, but I see good in you and I'm not willing to give up just yet."

The other one killed her mother. And the way she described that was. "Yeah. I hated her at first, but that hate. It was like venom. I felt poisoned by it. I decided that by forgiving her. I could spit that venom out and I'm glad I did."

The comment thinks this is too much emotional maturity for a teenager. (Her mother was killed when she was age 12, and she probably forgave the one that did it, 2 ish years later. Meaning her present form is 2 years after that.)

So, what do you think?

 

I don’t think emotional maturity is the right way to look at it. Most emotionally mature people don’t forgive their mom’s killer or someone who attempted to kill them.

It actually seems mentally defective to me, as if she has this vanity about wanting to be so good and forgiving she can forgive anyone and anything. Not likable in my opinion.

 

I think she's insane. Forgive someone who tried to kill her? Maybe, just maybe, depending on the circumstances. Forgiving someone who killed her mother? What wouldn't she forgive after that? (Although at that point in the story, any character of mine would look skyward and say, "OK, now you're just trying to piss me off.")

Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.

- Mark Twain

 

How did she see good in the other person? You'll have to show the relationship and show how the girl came to this perspective.

Again, you'll have to show how the hate nearly destroyed her to make it believable.

 

There's a real danger in creating a Mary Sue. We all want our characters to do well, but they need a flaw. Superman wouldn't play without kryptonite. I've developed characters with anxiety issues so strong that it affects their decision making. The warrior in my latest book could not strike a man already wounded, which came back to bite him several times. So give her a flaw. Let her fail and no one will call her Mary Sue...ETA

 

Mmmmm yeah, I agree with your beta reader. Something doesn't feel quite right here.

I would ask, what exactly are you writing? A realistic, mature and down-to-earth story about Sally's life?

Sally's gone through a lot. Her mother was killed at 12 years old. That's a traumatic experience, especially if they were bonded. Trauma is not something you overcome easily, and those who manage to do it, it takes them years and years of therapy. Such an incident would change someone's life forever.

Looking at it from this perspective, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Crazy things happen in real life, though, forgiveness is not impossible. But it will be extremely difficult to make such a scenario possible and in a way that others will connect with. You need to write good three-dimensional characters. And honestly, this won't just take good writing ability, it will take life experience to do it. A murderer who killed a little girl's mother? A traumatized girl who lost her mother forever? And in the end, she forgives? That's hard to write. This has been said already by people above me, but I thought I'd expand on it like this.

In simpler words, what you're trying to do is a serious challenge that could put your entire book into jeopardy.

And yet, that's not even the end of it. You also had your character forgive someone who nearly took her life. So, now, there is a new whole new layer you need to deal with in regards to Sally. You're doing too much. Way, way too much. Even experienced writers would shy away from this.

In my opinion, you need to be really cautious here. Both of the things Sally has dealt with requires a whole arc of their own. One arc for when she comes to forgive, and how she comes down to that decision in connection to her development, and then a whole new arc for nearly being killed. How was she going to be killed? How did she feel initially about it? How was she developed for that change? How did this change? Who was the person that nearly killed her? Why did he nearly kill her? What is "the good" inside of him? How did Sally see it? And above all, what does the "good" entail to? How does it tie into a bigger picture?

This whole almost-killed thing is a whole other can of worms, and that's why I said that it needs its own story arc. If a friend of mine came to me after almost being murdered and said, "But I see good in him." I'd immediately feel worry. I mean, again, real life is complicated too. It's not black and white. Murderers might have something "good" very deep inside of them but that's often deeply buried by mental health problems and trauma of their own. It's not something a sixteen year old girl should deal with, simply because she can't. It's impossible. Not even professional psychologists can manage something like this. But a sixteen year old girl would?

The first mother-death scenario was plausible, I could see potential for forgiveness with some splendid writing and characters. But this last thing? I really, really doubt that. Unless you give it a bad ending.

All of this said, in terms of story structure, do you have a separate story arc for each incident? Because if not, then that makes things even more difficult, I'm afraid.

So, yes, to answer your thread title: Sally is not just too pure, she's naive. And that has the potential to place her in serious danger.

I'm sure that there are a lot of things to like when it comes to Sally's character which is probably why you've received such positive feedback. It sounds like people aren't bored reading your stories, and that's really good. But there are flaws, nonetheless. And you really need to address them.

In the beginning of my reply, I did write that this would be if you were writing a down-to-earth story. But are you? We've seen villains who did really bad things turn good before in unrealistic fiction. What you're writing matters here. So, again, if this a down-to-earth story, then these things matter.

But this reply is long enough, I won't get down to the specifics. It does sound like you're writing something that you want to be realistic and believable.

 

Yeah. It's early here, and the coffee hasn't hit bottom. Maybe I should edit it for future refere3nce. Thanks @Homer Potvin

 

What type of story is this? Is this some type of urban fantasy or vampire/werewolf book? Otherwise it doesn't make sense to me, unless Sally is some priest or nun.

In the tv show The Vampire Diaries there were several characters that had a history of trying to kill one another or kill a friend or loved one that would later seem like "let bygones be bygones" but it was fantasy and they usually had a common goal.

Thor/Loki comes to mind too. But I don't see a 14-16 year old thinking like this in a realistic fiction novel.

 

Huh. I didn't know Sally had this connotation. I stink at names. I usually just grab the first one I think of and leave it be unless I find a reason to change it

 

You hit the nail on the head with the word naive. Naive is a certainly one of her character traits.

For context though, she isn't the main character but one of the five in a teenage superhero team(so urban fantasy)

And forgiveness in a sense can almost had seen as a character weakness or at least where it stems. Basically when her mother died. She realized something else. Granted I think the venom description still describes it but to give a bit more of an in depth description.

She realizes that when her mom died. She lost more than her mom. She lost "the happy version" or her father. And the sadder she got. The sadder he got. So she pulled herself up. She forced a smile and managed to help her dad recover (a bit at least)

So as a result. She gained this idealism of optimism being better. And that's also why she tried to mentally let go of her hate for her mother's killer.

She still misses her mom. She always will but she tries to live her life being a good person

When she becomes one of the super heroes she is so excited. But this sort of hits that part of her that tries to smile for others harder too. Like she gets legitimately hurt in a fight against a bad guy and almost loses consciousness and her reply when someone asks if she is okay is

"Feed me"

She figured a response like that got them to smile and she just gritted her teeth pretending to be hungry while she was in pain.

A similar logic occurs when someone tried to kill her. The rest of the team wanted to do something else but she was the one that was like. "But we're the heroes?"

So yeah. Her nativity is off the scale!

 

@GuardianWynn I don't think you can get a great answer to this from people who haven't read the work. Whether or not this rings true, in terms of character, is entirely down to the execution and how well you set things up with this character and make the reader understand and accept her as she is. The reaction from could range seeing her the way you want readers to see her, to seeing her as having mental issues (as has been mentioned above). How you execute will drive the outcome.

If it's one beta reader, I wouldn't necessarily rework everything to address the concerns. However, if you see that reaction as a common theme among your betas, I'd give the character development a bit more scrutiny and see where you can maybe connect some dots in way that will make it easier for readers to accept Sally as she is.

 

It isn't about the name a Mary Sue is ....
A Mary Sue is a character archetype in fiction, usually a young woman, who is often portrayed as inexplicably competent across all domains, gifted with unique talents or powers, liked or respected by most other characters, unrealistically free of weaknesses, … Wikipedia

 

That's fair

Actually I do have a full first draft of the book 86,000 words. So maybe I should be looking at a beta reading section lol


I always feel nervous to try and share my work in such a context lol

 

A forced positivity is not a resolution to trauma. It suppresses feelings which leads to a host of mental issues.

 

I don't disagree

I never said Sally's perfect or completely over the trauma in that sense.

Her reaction could legitimately be seen as a character flaw. I opened this thread cuz I wondered if it seemed like a bad character. But I'd not want to define her as a bad character based on her making a bad decision.

As a character that's naive and optimistic. You'd expect her to make mistakes. So given that context. How would you evulate what you'd heard so far?

 

How exactly would you describe this character flaw? And how will you show it?

Even a naive and optimistic person will be severely impacted by the murder of her mother and an attempt on her life. It's not about 'making mistakes'. It's about a psychology that makes sense.

 

Beautiful mark twain quote

Also yeah. I agree. Honestly thinking about how to reply to this. I think her own words would be more meaningful.

"But I'm a hero. This is what heroes do isn't it?"

Or "but I'm one of the good guys."

Your right too. In this sense, there is nothing she wouldn't forgive potentially because she views the forgiveness as her being able to move on. Though I to be fair, she is able to separate forgiveness and trust. She doesn't exactly trust the people that hurt her but she forgave them

 

Without having read most of these responses (only the first few)—

She might be innocent and naive. That wouldn't be unexpected for a 16-year-old. Or she might just be an extremely generous and forgiving soul. If you look into something called the enneagram, a way of thinking about personality types, some people are definitely like that, and not necessarily our of innocent naivety. Think about Christians who really try to live the ideal. Or Buddhists who do the same. Are the necessarily innocent and naive? No. They can be for sure, especially if they were raised with those beliefs. A person needs to have encountered some bad shit and then grown to understand it before they overcome naivety (not everybody starts off naive). I'd say naivety is when someone hasn't yet understood the malevolence many people are capable of. If you understand it you can forgive or not, depending on your personality type and your understanding of their personality type. Some people are bad or do evil things because they have no control and maybe no empathy. A person can't really be blamed for that, it's more like an act of nature or of an animal. They can only be blamed if they know what they did was wrong and did it anyway.

There's also a difference between blaming somebody for something and understanding why they did it. Example, a severely autistic person might do things that in another person would be pure evil, but it's because they just don't grasp what they're doing. In that case you can't really hold them responsible. You can hate what happened, but if you're going to be realistic about it, it wasn't really their fault. Of course a petty person would still hate them and blame them. But not everyone is petty and self-centered. If you've studied Stoicism this all becomes very clear, or any religious system in any depth (at least Christianity or Buddhism, not sure of all the rest). I'd say it's likely this girl has a deeply religious soul, whether or not she's been brought up under any religion. It can happen naturally, some people just have the capacity for understanding and forgiving. Blaming and hating is of the ego, a truly religious or Stoic person tries to learn to rise above that, and it can definitely be done. Psychologically it would be known as becoming aware of the archetype of the Self in the unconscious, the much larger and less self-centered center of personality that is far less egotistical than the ego, the conscious center of personality. That emphasis can be shifted, it's what the morality-based religions have always been about, as well as Stoicism, and some people just get there naturally.

 

The flaw is vulnerability as she is valuing the concept of good and helping others over herself. Which causes her to get hurt and I think ultimate moment of this is gonna stem from two situations. When someone else of hers dies. Causing her to doubt her forgiving nature and when someone betrays her trust and hurts her. Again making her question her choices.

With the first example I think she was always mentally prepared to be hurt but seeing her friend hurt was something that like ripped the damn open.


On the psychology I think. Your right about the damage. But it think the thing is. I think she was more average before her mother's death. It's that she has become more pure since her mother's death. And over compensation. Trying to live up to this idealism of justice and goodness. Trying to be someone her mother could be proud of

So I don't think it's that she didn't change from her mother's death but rather. This is what her mother's death pushed her into

If that makes sense?

 

Oh, well in that case forget what I said above. If she's naive that means she doesn't yet understand that people are capable of real violence and malevolence, and she's too trusting. That isn't mature at all. It keeps people immature until they get over it, and many never do. She's not like a saint or Christlike in her forgiving, she's just foolish. Of course that's a realistic trait for a little girl.

But it just occurred to me, a naive person when they get over it may well turn out to have the capacity for Christlike forgiving (what I was talking about in my first post). But not until she gets over the naivete.

 

I think I understand. And this is a valid character arc. But you mentioned she starts out hating her mother's killer. Then it turns all around and she only wants good. This change in her cannot be spontaneous. It's a process. Something has to happen to change her perspective.

 

'Impacted' yes, of course, but that doesn't mean she's necessarily going to blame or hate. That depends on how the mother was killed. If it was a legitimate accident that was somebody else's fault but it wasn't done deliberately, and that person cries themselves to sleep every night over it, there's no point in blaming or hating (though most people would do it anyway). But of course if it was caused by drunkenness or negligence that really was the person's fault, then that's a different matter and it would be pretty hard not to blame or hate. But still some people are capable of it. It's just that most in our society today are pretty petty and ego-based, and we've come to think of that as normal. I suppose it is, and probably always was, but there have definitely been people above it. Possibly she has the makings of a little saint? Saint Sally?

 

I may be using naive incorrectly

She understands evil. I mean, that's why she wants to be a hero.

She is impulsive and has trouble thinking things through in a deep way. Like for example. She gains a magic power of creation and can create any tool possible. And when she encounters a flying demon(yes magical fantasy story) she comes up with the idea to make a stick and and try jump and smack em.

The idea of "a bow and arrow" never occured to her. When one of her teammates suggest it. Her reaction is one of. "Omg that's such a good idea!!!"

So, when I thought naive I'm thinking about her issues with her sense of logistics.

When it comes to emotional based thinking she shows to be sympathetic and clever. Seeing through someone's poker face quite easily. But she wants to believe in the good of people and has trouble giving up on someone.

So do you think that fits the definition of naive?

 

I agree. I thought I gave that catalyst. Her father.

She was motivated by her father's depression to be there for them. She came to this understanding that "people lose more than just there loved ones. I lost the version of my father that previously existed and he lost the version of me that previously existed. I need to be better. If I'm not. I could lose him too"

And in this sense she decided she needed to let go of hate and anger. Mentally forgiving her mother's killer was something she more or less forced herself to do as a result.

"I forgive you. So I'm done being mad about it. Dad! I love you and starting today I'm gonna start cooking breakfast like mom used too"