Ok Within one hour and a bit it looks like a few folk are grumbling. I'm posting this here because most of you seem to be looking here. Basically many of the younger members feel they should have a forum that is dedicated to essay's and the like. Now I'm not opposed to it. But neither do I care if I'm completely honest. After all we are a writer's forum not a school work forum. So with that in mind Please do not post up anything asking for help with school work or course work or even a submitted peice. Because, We will remove it. If you want help with your eassay's or school work then ask your tutors or even work with your friends. Or even google it there maybe a forum out there that can help you. We are not that kind of forum nor will we be. ~Raven. Senior Super Moderator.
Personally, I don't see any harm in a student submitting an essay to be proofread. I would (and do), however, get very annoyed if people had to write book reports and didn't read the book... and ask for a summary of the book. I see that so much at my school that it has become a pet peeve of mine. Some people work so hard to trudge through certain books and then you see freeloaders in AP classes. It bugs the hell out of me.
We can't have a double standard, turning away newcomers who post asking for schoolwork help, while allowing senior members to do the same thing. I know this may seem unfair, but in fact it is in the interest of fairness that we have to do things this way. Iris: The student has to do his or her own proofreading. That is part of submitting an assignment - the teacher will want to see the student's own work, flaws and all. That is the best way for the teacher to know what help the student needs.
Not necessarily. Speaking as a former teacher, I wouldn't have a problem with a student getting a proofreading or even discussing the merits of various potential story/essay ideas with other students or their parents. In fact, I'd actively encourage it, especially if the student in question struggled with such things. However, it's a fine line between, "Hey, I did this thing and need some help refining it," and "Hey, I have an assignment; can you do it for me?" I certainly understand not wanting to skirt the murky edges of such an issue.
Other teachers would undoubtedly disagree. Rather than try to second-guess what the teacher would or would not consider cheating, the safest policy is to forbid ANY requests for homework assistance. I have seen at least a couple posts with sentences to correct for punctuation. They were obviously copied verbatim from a worksheet in which the student's task was to find and fix the errors (the sentences had a very characteristic look to them that screamed "assignment sheet").
Speaking as a current teacher, from what I've seen members post for "assistance" is more along the lines of someone correcting work (be it grammar, punctuation or essay content). The answers given are rarely along the line of: "Check the third paragraph. You've got a punctuation issue to address and also a concern with an antecedent." Much less is learned by having someone do the correcting as opposed to figuring it out, maybe with a little guidance as to what the the problem is. I suspect that opportunity is available in school, with the teacher or study groups. As a teacher, I'd prefer not to see such here, and I avoid commenting on such topics/threads when they do appear. This is not the only forum where similar questions/posts appear and most often it is the forum's policy to discourage if not lock or delete such posts. Terry Terry
I think the grey areas are the heart of the matter. It is far to large of an area and it is ever so easy to cross into it at any given moment.
At my school, our papers MUST be edited/proofread by another person and then reworked before handing them in. Then we get feedback from the teacher. My school is, apparently, different.
With that system, do you have to identify the proofreader? Is it supposed to be another student in the class, or does the teacher not care who does it? Personally, I have mixed feelings about this approach. In one sense, it's a good habit to develop with writing. But the downside is that the student can be as sloppy as he or she wants with the first draft, as long as the proofreader is good enough. I wonder how well the student learns to find and fix mistakes from the start. But that's beside the point. This site must take the conservative approach and not be a party to cheating to whatever degree we can avoid it.
Often I have students in the class pair up and read/proof the other's work. Students sometimes complain and want to get a proofreader ourside of the classroom, such as an older brother, or parent or whoever else. A common result is that the student gets someone to correct their work for them, but do not learn in the process. This is then reflected in later assignments and essays on tests, for example. It really depends on the 'type' of assistance the student gets. Does the helper take over and do the work, or simply guide and direct the student toward improvment? The latter is generally the better of the two. Most folks learn better by doing than watching someone else do (or review what the other person has done). Terry
Well actually, at my school since its an independent study its hard to get in touch with other students, meaning they don't like me very much, and my teachers are busy. So as I student I try to do my own work, but sometimes I need a little push. I edit my stuff first. I see your guy's problem, the younger members are posting...this is a homework assignment please help me? Instead of maybe asking a fellow student, then editing it themselves, asking a teacher, and then for a final check coming on here. I see no problem with that schedule. And if the older members get to post their essays, why can't the younger members? I like your guy's criticism over my fellow peers. I appreciate it more. I know a lot of my essays that are edited by peers are edited harshly just because they don't like me. But when their friend comes up with the most horrendous essay I'm talking grammar mistakes left and right...they send them higher marks. You guys don't judge and I respect that. That is why I feel safe to know you guys would give me a final check. If I had an essay I wasn't sure on and some students edited my essay just because they didn't like me and my teacher is to busy. I think as a final check I should be able to come to you. Hope my post wasn't to confusing or didn't make any sense.
I do believe that the required proofreading has to be noted as a student within the class, and most of them usually suck at proofreading. For example, the English department at my high school wants to make sure that our college essays are at least decent, so we write them as a homework assignment. I brought mine to class and I was perfectly aware that I was lacking a thesis/premise. I noted this on the paper and asked for possible suggestions on how I should go about changing it (just suggestions, not a rewrite). I get my paper back at the end of the class and there aren't many scribbles on it and they praised my "thesis". I thought, hm, something isn't right. So, I turned to maia (of this site and Medusa's Mirror) to rip apart my essay... ... and boy, did she rip it apart! Ever since, I have rewritten my college essay (and I think that it's much better now) and I am more conscious about my writing (...outside of conversation, at least). Moral of the story: Having another student proofread your work doesn't always get you the best results.
I've had the same experience as you in terms of peers not proofreading and editing properly. What's frustrating is that you basically have to distrust all of their proofreading marks and comments and take the time to try to judge the accuracy of each suggestion. I thought this kind of peer review stuff would stop after high school...I'm now in a Running Start program (high schooler, but taking university-credit classes), and my college English composition professor is doing the same thing. My last essay was proofread/edited by a fellow student whose 2nd language is English.
A word of advice I learned when my sons were in school. Keep all your drafts, even if using the computer before you make changes save the unchanged pieces. That way if you are accused of taking short cuts you have the proof. This was told to me when computers were first being used at home and work was emailed in to teachers or passed in, in printed form. Teachers didn't have that problem when computers were not in every home.
Good point, lessa. Also, if you post schoolwork, even after the assignment is turned in, you could find yourself in a mess if it gets stolen by someone else and distributed. Schools run random scans for homework essays, and if they do find copies of your essay on the web, you'll be automatically branded a cheat. The burden will be on YOU to prove otherwise, and it may be a hard sell indeed!
The learning process is simple...trial, error, correction. All three parts are necessary for learning to take place. If a student is deprived of the opportunity to craft his or her own answers and to "discover" his or her mistakes (because someone on a forum corrected the error) then the student is unlikely to actually learn the lesson. Also, let's face it, all the advice on this or any other forum is not always correct. Who is responsible for a change in the student's writing that ultimately turns out to be wrong? What did the student "learn"? The second issue here is grades. Grades provide a basis for measurement of success in the learning process. If those results are skewed by external influence, then 1) the student is deprived of honest feedback, and 2) the student may receive unfair advantage over his/her peers who are doing their own work. This becomes a serious matter when considering college admissions. Why should someone who worked very hard for a 3.80 GPA be displaced by someone who cheated their way to a 3.90 GPA? My opinion is - we should maintain strict standards of "no help" on student assignments.
Personally, I learn plenty if someone shows me what I've done wrong. I keep it in mind and remember it the next time I have to do a similar assignment.
Same here. Also I think if you guys don't want to allow homework assignments, then create a student section and have fellow students help each other.
There are endless other websites for that. Or you could even do it privately, over the PM system, if you're that determined.
The policy has been clearly stated. We will not permit asking for hoework help on this site. Everyone may have opinions as to whether or not they agree with the policy, but the policy stands. If we find out about it, we will stop it. I don't think there is any misunderstanding about what the policy IS, so I am closing the thread. It wasn't intended to be a referendum about whether everyone agreed with it.
