Sensitivity Readers

Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by Earp, Dec 28, 2017.

Tags:
  1. SnapFandango

    SnapFandango Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    24
    Ok, so, no offence chicken, but you are the only authoritarian chicken here. Basically you are all gonna destroy Foxx because you don't like him/her/whatever and it is a scrum of scared morons. You are all so shit scared of sitting outside on your own that you just don't care about morals or integrity. It would be funny were it not so pathetic.
     
  2. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,443
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    New York
    Seriously? No one is destroying @Foxxx. What's your problem?
     
  3. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    2,176
    Location:
    United States
    More often than not, health issues are unavoidable.

    The mistake was actually on my behalf. I should've said healthy lifestyles, as that implies more choice on behalf of the person.
     
    SnapFandango, Trish and ChickenFreak like this.
  4. SnapFandango

    SnapFandango Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    24
    Trish; you do not have my balance of opinion
     
  5. SnapFandango

    SnapFandango Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    24
    I do not agree with Foxx, but I agree less with you.
     
  6. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,443
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    New York
    So you're stating the obvious now? Good plan.
     
  7. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,339
    Likes Received:
    13,061
    It would be good if you would start quoting. Usually when you hit the Reply button under a post, that post is quoted in your reply.
     
    Trish likes this.
  8. SnapFandango

    SnapFandango Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    24
    Sorry Chicken, I was slightly angry.
     
    Foxxx likes this.
  9. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    528
    Location:
    Colorado
    Fair enough.I think you're giving too much significance to skin color (and/or any attribute one does not control), and that this hyper-focus on the experiences of those who look or are a specific way leads to excessive navel-gazing and misses the true beauty of the human spirit. And that's not to say that something can't both tackle social issues and be a genuinely good story. Remember the Titans comes to mind. What I'd like to know is how you define "realistic." Realistic to whom? Because in a world of 7 billion people, for every experience you put forth, there's one that runs counter to it. Is a black person's reality being discriminated against by police, or is it being accused of "acting white" by other black people? And if it feels like I'm making your point, it's because we agree that people have different experiences based on how they look. What I'm trying to do is find out at what point a person stops being "realistic" for you.

    Meta analysis on implicit bias:
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/308926636_A_Meta-Analysis_of_Change_in_Implicit_Bias

    Mind, it never claims that black people are treated differently in luxury stores. It just says that there's little evidence that implicit bias mediates changes in explicit behavior.
     
    Foxxx likes this.
  10. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,443
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    New York
    You know this is a contradiction, right? If you have a balance of opinion, you are seeing both arguments from a central point of view, meaning that you cannot "agree less" with anyone, as this is, what we *normal people refer to as an opinion. In essence, yes your point proved itself, but you then proceeded to disprove it in the same exact sentence.

    *normal meaning a human being with an average IQ
     
    Cave Troll and Laurus like this.
  11. SnapFandango

    SnapFandango Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    24
    Are you reduced to semantics? Shush
     
  12. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    2,176
    Location:
    United States
    Literally me right now.

     
    Laurus likes this.
  13. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,339
    Likes Received:
    13,061
    I don't really think of it that way. I want to know stuff. I want to know those, "Oh, this happened to me" stories that make other people in similar life situations nod and say, "Yep, me, too." And if I write a situation that would make someone say, "Eh, sure, that's possible, but it doesn't strike me as likely," I want to know that.

    At a quick glance, it seems to be saying that reducing bias doesn't change explicit behavior--that is, that it's not so easy to make bad things better. If you tell me I'm misreading it, I'll take your word for it and go read the bookmark more thoroughly later.
     
    SnapFandango and Foxxx like this.
  14. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    2,176
    Location:
    United States
    I have a question for you.

    Earlier in the thread it was said that there's a difference between writing a character who is unforgivably racist, and writing a book that endorses the character and the racism.

    So when you write a character, or one of those "Oh this happened to me" stories, do you just write it and that's that? Or do you intend to generalize it onto the race itself?
     
  15. Trish

    Trish Damned if I do and damned if I don't Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,443
    Likes Received:
    2,083
    Location:
    New York
    Allow me to translate; how dare I use your tactics of conversation to converse WITH you...(?)
     
  16. SnapFandango

    SnapFandango Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    24
    yup, you win.
     
  17. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    528
    Location:
    Colorado
    Fair enough. I can respect that. It's not how I do it, but I'm going to tell you not to.

    It's saying that changing implicit bias doesn't necessarily change explicit behavior. The moral value of biases is inert. They are not bad or good. Behaviors are bad or good. I don't think you're misreading it, but it seems like you are trying to moralize it.
     
  18. Laurus

    Laurus Disappointed Idealist Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    528
    Location:
    Colorado
    Get well soon.
     
    Foxxx likes this.
  19. minstrel

    minstrel Leader of the Insquirrelgency Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    10,547
    Likes Received:
    9,236
    Location:
    Near Sedro Woolley, Washington
    @SnapFandango is gone. Can we get back to normal here, please?
     
  20. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,339
    Likes Received:
    13,061
    I'm fairly sure that I just translate the "Oh, this happened to me" into a situation and a character's life, rather than generalizing it. That's assuming that I fully understand the question, and I'm not quite sure that I do.

    The "Uh, that really doesn't seem likely" situation is more likely to be treated as generally unlikely.

    Still not positive that I understand the question.
     
    Foxxx likes this.
  21. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,339
    Likes Received:
    13,061
    I probably am, but mostly it's not the topic I thought you were addressing with the link. I thought it would address whether people with certain characteristics, including race, tend to experience different behaviors from other people, compared with people with other characteristics. A related subject, but not the same one.
     
    Laurus likes this.
  22. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    2,176
    Location:
    United States
    Hmmm... I'll see if I can re-word it or expand it, but I *think* you understand what I'm getting at anyway.

    I'll try by making this about me.

    I write a story about an Asian individual who experiences severe racism here in America during the 1950s, shortly after WWII.

    I write the story because I'm interested in an aspect of the human condition. What does it feel like to be ostracized based on how you look? That sort of thing. Something anybody of any race could potentially relate to.

    What I don't do, is write it in a preachy way that tries to throw all Asians under the victim bus, so-to-speak, or paint all white Americans as racists or people who "just don't understand." I, as the author, instead believe that racism is a universal phenomenon, and the race of my character is inconsequential outside of my specific story.

    Or to try and give you a somewhat similar example... Tolkien faced the same issue when he published The Lord of the Rings, because people kept trying to make it out to be a commentary on current, real-life politics (Nazis, Soviets, WWII, etc.) and Tolkien became frustrated because it wasn't about anything in real life at all. Maybe it was inspired by real events, but he was trying to get to the bottom of the human aspects of those conflicts. He wasn't looking to make a commentary about the conflict itself. Leave that to Orwell and his Animal Farm book, basically.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  23. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,339
    Likes Received:
    13,061
    Hmm. This issue is tangled for me by the fact that I don't consciously and deliberately write with themes anyway. So it's not a choice between writing about racism in American in the 20th (Oh, yeah, 21st) century, versus writing about racism as a human phenomenon. It's more likely to be that I'm writing a story and, hey, look what those characters are doing! Racism!

    So I think I may understand the question but it's difficult for me to answer it. The Highly Flavored Novel seems to be about social hierarchy, power, betrayal, obedience, and, yes, a form of racism, though the racists are white and the people they're racist against are white, not entirely unlike the attitude toward the Irish a century or two ago.

    What's my point? I got interrupted there, and then as I was writing this I solved a major problem with the HFN, as a result of your question, so thanks!

    Um. So, no, I don't think that when I write I'm directly addressing a specific identifiable situation in the current world with the intent of improving or communicating about that situation. If that was the question. :)
     
    Foxxx likes this.
  24. Foxxx

    Foxxx The Debonair Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    2,188
    Likes Received:
    2,176
    Location:
    United States
    We're on the same page here, you and I.

    I find it very intriguing that you don't necessarily write with theme in mind, at least not like I do. Are you more of a "pantser" to use the dreaded term?

    EDIT: Guess this is a little off topic; sorry! Just curious.
     
    ChickenFreak likes this.
  25. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,339
    Likes Received:
    13,061
    I am indeed a pantser, at least for this novel. This novel started out as an experiment in enjoying the process of writing fiction. The fact that it is knitting together to actually have a plot is a surprise and a bonus. I'm eager to find out whether it happens again, for the next one, but that will be a while.
     
    Foxxx likes this.

Share This Page