I’ve written a strictly first person, mainly present tense Crime story from the POV of someone whose morals are ‘different’. One person has read the lot and said he absolutely loved it. Since then I’ve swapped a few opening chapters, with other crime writers. One says ‘An interesting piece indeed. Fabulously, obsessively, intriguingly written’ Another says ‘ I read your first chapter – loved it, really powerful stuff.’ – but ‘the pace is very heavy and slow’ Another says ‘Spoiled by a pace that is borderline catatonic. Responding to feedback, I’ve changed the 4,500 word 1st chapter that had no dialogue. It is now 3 chapters, totalling 5,600 words with a little dialogue in the short Chs 1 & 2. Ch 3 is him setting fire to an old people’s home and still has none. I do tell a lot of the story – through the eyes and head of a guy with a strong character – like lighting the fire. I don’t tell his emotions – I show them. I describe events – e.g. he is on his own when he finds his barge has been ransacked and at first thinks there is someone still on board. He finds 1 photo of his mom left – and it’s partially burned. (Do I put a parrot in there for him to talk to?!) Overall, there must be roughly no more than 16% dialogue. However, I get plenty of white space in there with his introspections and thoughts, though I rarely highlight internal thought/speech. Wrt to white space – one said: ‘Those short and sweet passages, hastened the pace of your story and helped raise the tension. Clever and effective.’ All the f/b says well written. So, when did sparse dialogue start being interpreted as all tell and no show and therefore bad and slow. Don’t we TELL stories? Do I have to throw this away because it doesn’t comprise 60% dialogue? For me, dialogue is easy. When I see people in Nano writing 10,000 words a day, I reckon they must just have masses of meaningless dialogue. Or in this fast food world does no one have the patience to read a slow burn story? (that each has said is well written) Rant over.
Oh, I totally TOTALLY get your rant, @Tim3232. You're bucking current trends which love dialogue because it means the reader can flip pages like a hurricane leveling a cardboard shantytown. However, dialogue alone will not create interest. If it doesn't illuminate character and isn't properly attributed and the reader loses track of who is saying what to whom, it can become a huge liability. Dialogue can be difficult to control, unless the writer uses it to move the plot forward and create character. Just repeating what would be said in real life does not make a book read more easily. It becomes as boring as listening to somebody's inane conversation on a mobile phone. Lots of words, but no real significance. The notion that readers will be put off by the fact that there is no dialogue in certain chapters is one that's difficult to fight against. No dialogue does NOT mean dull, boring or turgid. If a chapter opens with one person doing something alone, then dialogue isn't really possible. I know this, because my second and fourth chapters consist of exactly this scenario. The character was introduced in the Prologue, which does contain dialogue, and from Chapter 5 on, all the chapters contain dialogue. But sometimes a person on his own is what's needed, and unless they are talking to themselves, there is no dialogue. The fact that so many people liked your book thus far is a plus in your favour ...as long as they were honest and you value them as critique-givers. However, if a couple of people think your first chapter was 'slow,' then you might want to rethink your approach. You don't need to include dialogue, but possibly concentrate on the feelings and thoughts of the character a bit more ...even if he doesn't have any feelings. He will certainly be thinking, and working out his plan of action as the chapter progresses. If you let us in on how his mind works, you'll keep our interest. If you show him doing something that would normally produce feelings, and he doesn't feel anything, that can be a striking character trait. Emphasize it, if you can. Also, if you've included detail and backstory that isn't necessary at this point, maybe trim it back. I would definitely pay attention to betas who find some passages don't grip them, or move too slowly. That's what betas are for. You never know how a piece of writing will actually strike a reader until you try it out. See if you can get either of these betas (and you're implying that they are experienced writers) to suggest some specific things to improve the piece without forcing dialogue on you, if that's not appropriate for this part of the story.
Thanks for the response @jannert. I prepared my rant offline and when I came to post, saw that there had already been threads on show & tell. Without reading those, I hoped my dialogue element added a variation. I don't know how good or experienced the people were that I swapped with - just met them on a crime-writers forum. As I say, I have introduced a little dialogue to show relationships and reveal character in the first 2 chapters. I have sent the revised 3 chapters to two who didn't see the initial 1 chapter they replace. Let's see how they respond. I know I could cut more of the narrative that sets the atmosphere and outlines his character - and I recognise that I simply don't want to. Back to my fast food. Let's see how the new 2 reviewers get on.
I personally would not worry so much about the dialogue if that's not how you want your story to be. As mentioned above, dialogue does help a book flow at a more dynamic pace, but it's not needed. It all just depends on your writing style; if you and other readers like it without dialogue, leave it as-is. Some examples of the right and wrong way to do this: The Slow Regard of Silent Things by Patrick Rothfuss: A brilliant (if short) book that tells an enchanting story with little to no dialogue. The Silmarillion by JRR Tolkien Christopher Tolkien: A mind-numbingly boring book that forces everything down your throat with little to no dialogue. In the end, just remember that this is YOUR story. What are YOU going to be happy with?
I had to smile as I read your OP, @Tim3232, because my writing tends to be more weighted toward dialogue. Not out of any desire to pitch to the crowd, it's just the way I like to write, especially to show character. It sounds to me as if you got some crit, responded to it, and wound up with a better product. I'd say keep up the good work.
Thanks @-oz and @EdFromNY (Couldn't stand the Silmarillion when I read it years ago - Jeez, i hope i don't write like that! Haven't read the other one. I'll add it to my list.) I tell myself that we don't all enjoy the same style, so if a few but not all are bored, that might be ok. I recall the Gaiman quote that I probably read on here - that when people tell you there is something wrong they are almost always right, when they tell you exactly what is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong - the little dialogue I have added isn't as 1 reader suggested. And I might yet concede and cut a little - heeding @jannert and paying some attention to my betas - especially as it's early in the book and readers might be put off. (I think one suggested cut 50% and he'd be interested - well, I'm not going to be chasing him as a reader.)
I'm confused, though. Dialogue is not the opposite of tell. Show v. tell is a different dynamic to dialogue v. narrative.
mmm... good point. I've picked on a few words from my feedback and perhaps put more emphasis on the 'show don't tell' phrase than I ought, and perhaps this thread is really about dialogue v narrative. Extracts from 2 pieces of feedback : Conversation/dialogue has a way of bringing characters to life like no other. 1. Not that it’s not good to be in that person’s head, just that dialogue can bring a story more alive. I can see, reading on a little that the old man is almost beyond speaking but even a virtual monologue from the main character would show that, and provide more of a ‘show don’t tell’ type of experience for your reader. 2. Does it stay in first person throughout? If we see him from someone else’s POV, I’d be more inclined to want to read on, otherwise his obsessional narrative could become exasperating. It is dialogue I have introduced - to 'bring the story alive' and to show the relationship between the guy and his dad via their exchange.
Maybe you're just way too far into the guy's head. It's hard to tell without seeing an excerpt of the work. As far as dialogue vs. narrative goes, I have the opposite issue with my current WIP. Way too much dialogue, but I love dialogue. I think it can be very funny and interesting and show people's changing relationships as well as move the plot. But it can also be meaningless, like you mentioned. You seem to believe that readers in general want more dialogue, but I was under the opposite impression. From what I've been reading, new writers are encouraged to use less dialogue, something I struggle with. So... I don't know. I'm confused now. What do readers want? lol
The crime genre tends to be fast-paced, I think. It's not action-packed or anything, but things move - you talk to this suspect, you find a new lead, someone else gets murdered, some pointless bureaucracy hinders the investigation, you find another lead, detective's wife gets kidnapped - you get the idea. It's fast and intense. If there's any mulling to be done, it's usually about the case, and with a pinch of the detective's own lonely, sad life thrown in (usually divorced, or sometimes widowed). As such, what you're writing - in terms of spending huge amounts of time building up character, lots of introspection, taking your time with things - it could just be a case of you not following the usually accepted trends/pace of the genre. There's nothing wrong with that per se, but it could be that your readership may be smaller. However, I think as long as what you write is written well, you don't have to worry too much about it. Readers don't all read only one thing, after all, so your fresh take on how a crime story should be told etc could equally get you lots of fans as long as it's written well. Personally, I'm rather curious - what do your readers mean when they said the pace is heavy and slow? Did they pinpoint which scene or passage they're referring to? I'd be interested in digging deeper into just what they mean. Because if the pacing of your novel is genuinely off, then it should be worked on. If, however, it's just that it bucks the current trends, then there may be some things in the feedback you might want to actually ignore Basically, find out if it's a flaw in your writing, or if it's a matter of style that's eliciting the neg feedback.
When I started writing I worried about this all the time, pulling out hair, wondering where to place exposition, where to place dialogue. Was I revealing too much character through exposition and not enough through dialogue. As my writing improved, I found these elements fell naturally into place, and I stopped fretting so much.
The 1 guy who has read the lot and loved it didn't like that the protag/narrator repeated or more or less repeated things. I was using this as method of emphasis and because it is what people do in real life. The rest only saw the 1st 4,600 words. (was Ch 1) One didn't directly comment on the pace and commented that 'the introspection of the narrator was excellent' but felt that a little dialogue would reduce the risk of it being claustrophobic and would liven it up (effectively pace) Another said nothing about pace or dialogue and wrote 'I can’t help you improve this excerpt, there’s nothing I could add that would increase tension or add to the drama.' The next suggested I break the chapter down to keep the pace flowing. (Done that now) She said she would like to see some dialogue (done) and added - ' If we see him from someone else’s POV, I’d be more inclined to want to read on, otherwise his obsessional narrative could become exasperating.' (I'm not changing that - does it affect the pace ... not sure. Maybe i have more introspection because its 1st person only - but then he is somewhere on the psycho level and i hope creepy but interesting) Next ' The only thing I would say is that the pace is very heavy and slow. Even when Strange Steve is burning down the building the pace is still feels slow. It’s that slow feeling of dragging a spoon through treacle. It’s interesting of course, and nice to read in short bursts, but I am not sure how it would do over the length of an entire novel. - and - Other than that, I don’t have much, it’s hard to give feedback on something this polished. I love how dark it is, and I love that it is written in the first person' The guy who like it least - thought i laboured points (short repetitions), spent too long on build up - explaining rituals for instance, and drifting from the centre instead of staying on action. I'm sure someone will point out a load of books with a similar line - but this is a story of 2 characters - a bad guy and a 'colourful' and slightly dodgy copper - from the view of the bad guy - not the usual detective. We don't see 'detecting' done - except when the copper is with the bad guy. (And the reader gains a little empathy with the bad guy as it develops) It's not like anything I've read. A little comparable to Dexter - but really it reads nothing like it. (Sorry, that was a long response - trying to satisfy your curiosity)
@Tim3232 - based on what you've shared re the feedback you got, it sounds like a mixture of 2 things. 1. An actual pace issue and 2. style preferences. Now, how to balance that is something only you can answer I think the issue re pacing isn't so much that you cannot or should not have the heavy introspection - but perhaps that you need to vary your pace. That's something different to simply speeding things up and not dwelling on the introspection that you want and is part of your style. But variation is important to any good novel. I once read a book by Lawrence Block - given you're in the crime genre, you probably know who that is. It's full of introspection and lengthy blocks of character monologue (actual, spoken monologue, usually from people the private detective's interviewing). It's not like the average crime novel I've read, but at the same time it's not completely off the grid unusual. Despite not much happening and things really not being that intense, and that the focus was a lot more on the character and alcohol problem of the detective, I was never bored. In fact, it was only when I read the final line of the novel and burst into tears that I realised how much the detective's alcohol problem meant to me throughout the book - it completely caught me by surprise. And it was an ordinary line - nothing insightful or dramatic or poetic - just a mundane, regular sentence. I remember sitting there feeling all that relief and crying and wondering why the heck I was crying lol. It's likely a different style to what you're writing, but it might be worth a look in so far as it's a crime novel that's not written according to the standard trend, with heavy amounts of introspection and character development - with those elements being actually favoured above the actual crime that drives the plot.
Maybe your beta readers are clouded by their own personal preferences. I will Admit that I can be guilty of this too at times. I love reading novels full of dialogue and I generally use a lot of dialogue when I write. That's to say it might not be your writing style but what people want or expect to see. As others above have mentioned. I use dialogue mostly to introduce new characters, drive the plot or control the pace. Less dialogue = more action (slower pace) more setting description or inner monologue ECT... More dialogue = less action (faster pace) less description ECT... Maybe these pace comments from your betas are related to the amount of setting description or inner monologue content. Perhaps they feel your including too much information and it's slowing the pace? Because if I read a chapter that was well written and interesting, the only reason I would suggest more dialogue to brake it up, would be if I felt overwhelmed by huge chunks of setting description, back-story or inner monologue ECT.. Again! That's my personal taste. And without seeing the chapters, that's the best guess to why your getting mixed messages from your readers.
Can't say I'm that big a fan of crime. I had a go last year and was shortlisted in the CWA DD, so thought I'd found something I could do. Failed this year with what I thought was a much better novel - perhaps last year was luck. (As it happens, last year's did have a lot of dialogue in the submission to the comp. along with action.) Anyway, I'll take a look at Block. Thanks. mmm.... style and pace. Not sure they are 2 separate issues (in my case at least). The slow pace is an element of the style. As mentioned above - 1 person liked the white space with very short sentences for 2 or 3 lines, which I use occasionally - and which vary the pace - mainly in scenes when the guy is on his own. My story is part psychological - I've read 1 or 2 of these that have been slow. I've tried to address some of the points raised by reviewers. I think 1 will never like it - that's life. I'll give some more thought to varying pace - particularly in the Ch with no dialogue. An idea has come to me that might be worth playing with - just discussing this 'out loud' helps. Thanks everyone.
Not sure about your less dialogue - more action - slower pace - shouldn't that be faster pace with more action? I suspect i'm in his head too much. Most (I think all) items that I raise, (which the one reader saw as digressing from the action) - i return to one or more times in the chapter and/or beyond it. Connecting things. I don't meander on to the colour of a toaster or what he had for lunch or anything without significance. No, hang on - the whole novel is from his head. (By the way, all my action is subdued - so slow, despite my opening comment!)
There's a lot of baggage with genre fans. You can blow their minds but they still want to set you straight about a few things. If I'm trying to do something different I usually take all critiques and sift for the ones that if I take their advice my piece will work better. Not that by taking it I'll be upholding some standard of dialogue/exposition ratio but because I maybe don't need what I thought I did. I've been told sometimes my paragraphs are too much but when I've asked what should I take out, I really don't get clear answers. For me this is someone that is reading with genre standards in mind. Not necessarily the story in mind. On the flip side I've been told the details are good but slow up the works ax them. And they will give me very definite ones to ax. I usually keep in mind all genres have their exceptions - in horror you can have your Richard Laymon with his 70% dialogue or Poppy Brite with her 80% exposition. If your critiquers gave you specifics maybe make the corrections in a separate word.doc and see how it reads.
I like this advice. Or should I say I liked this advice. Well, both really. Even the guy who expressed the strongest -ves wrote that it was 'very well written' which all said. I have 2 reviewers for the updated extract to come. Let's see what they bring.
Yeah I remember you were the one who got shortlisted for the CWA thingy Style and pace - as with most things in writing, there're overlaps. But even a slow novel needs to be paced well. I don't think when people talk about pace, they only mean the word as "fast". Haven't you ever read a slow, ponderous novel that's paced just right? With pacing, it's kinda like making sure you don't dwell too much or too little on anything, but that everything's just right, expanded to just the right length that gives just enough information at all the right moments. Like that. And a slow novel or a fast novel can both do that - they could both be paced right, but paced very, very differently. So I don't necessarily encourage you to pick up the pace. But simply to make sure that it is paced right for the story you want to tell and the tone in which you want to tell it. Another thing - perhaps you should find a reader who enjoys massive blocks of introspection and who's a more patient reader who enjoys something a little slower, and see if they have a problem with the pacing of your book. While every reader's response is valuable in some way, there's no point asking someone who hates romance to read a romance novel, if you get me. (romance was just an example) You're clearly not writing according to regular crime genre trends, so there may be little point asking for crime readers/writers for too much feedback. They're not your target audience. And if someone who normally enjoys really slow, introspective books tells you your novel's too slow for their taste - then you know it's definitley something to work on.
This is one of the greatest pieces of advice that I've seen here. Try it out for a page or three. Give it a shot and see what happens!
What I meant by less dialogue more action (slower pace) is.... When there is action, if that action be events unfolding or just characters physical movement, it results in this 'action' being portrayed and described to the reader. I used the term action to cover a large array without being specific sorry. When there's a lot of action spanning a lengthy section, it can slow the pace while the reader increases their concentration on absorbing/understanding what's going on. Even if written well, it can become too much for some people. That's why I suggested it might be some peoples personal taste as a pose to your writing style. If your style is to have intense build-ups and a slower pace, if this is intentional and you feel it works then continue to pursue it. Like I said not everyone will love it and that doesn't make it bad. In fact I'm sure a lot of people will enjoy such style.
Right - so just got to put an advert together - ISO - critiquer M/F - enjoys I / Cr / Ars - likes it slow (In search of ..Male/Female / Introspection / Crime / Arson) Does this site provide such a facility?
This kind of jumped out at me, because I had to deal with similar issues in my novel. Aside from my tendency to repeat things just to make my meaning clearer, I also thought it was interesting to show several scenes from differing points of view. For me this worked a treat, illuminating character, letting the reader see how the two different characters saw the same event. However, one of my betas said to me: "When I got to those parts I thought ...oh no, I've already read this." To his credit, he did continue reading, and pronounced the book 'great' and has since been nagging me to get it published. At first I thought ...well, that's exactly what I wanted to do—then I thought, wait a minute.... I wanted my reader to notice that I'd repeated for emphasis, but I didn't want them to see this as a flaw. The reaction was NOT supposed to be "Oh no, I've already read this." Obviously I had done something wrong. I went back and rewrote those scenes, picking the BEST POV character to tell that part of the story, instead of sharing it between two POV characters. And you know what? Not only did it totally improve the story flow, but changing POV characters actually made one part of the story easier to tell. So my friend was right. I think @peachalulu 's suggestion, to make a copy of your MS and try implementing the suggestions you've received in the draft copy is a really really good one. You risk nothing by doing this. You can go back to your original version if you want. However, making risk-free changes may produce some pleasing results. Give it a go. Remember. You get betas because you want feedback. It makes no sense to get their feedback and then ignore it. You will naturally have a negative reaction to many of their suggestions at first, because this is something you've worked on very hard, and you're very close to it. But sit on the suggestions for a while, then experiment with the changes that make sense to you. You've had at least two of these people tell you they think the story moves too slowly, or contains too much information unleavened by action, dialogue, whatever. See what you can do to address these concerns. I reckon you probably don't need to change your style or approach, but just trim it back. Less is often more. Strive to make a strong impression, rather than give all the little ins and outs of the character, all his backstory, etc. See what you can do to focus more sharply on him and what he's doing. Choosing one or two details that really stand out is probably better than swamping the reader with eight of them that will be quickly forgotten.
I did start a new version a few days ago in which I changed the large Ch 1 to 3 smaller chapters and in which there is a little dialogue in the first 2. Two who have not seen it before are due to take a look. And I have to admit that the dialogue has given me the opportunity to add something. Thinking about it, I might ask the guy how has read the lot to take a look at the changes as well, he hasn't seen it for a few months. The guy's conceit and disdain for others seem to me to be better illustrated by his introspection. It's the cutting of narrative I'm yet to do. I'll look closely and see which words I can bear to do without. (HA! - as if any are that good! I bet no one would notice the absence of any passage I cut but me.) And however much I like my repetition - yeah, maybe I can cut that back. I'll do some more trimming in the new version then put it away for a few weeks - and see how it looks then. I'll have stopped crying at the killing of sentences by then.
