"Since when did you..." - Do They write themselves?

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by izzi, Jan 14, 2009.

  1. Aeroflot

    Aeroflot New Member

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    I'm not sure why that's happening for you, but my characters always surprise me, though that's because I don't know a single thing about the character at the beginning. If I were to develop the character during the prewriting stage, then yes, I wouldn't be surprised. But since the characters are formed as the writing progresses, then every action is new. By the end of the story writing, the character should be fully developed, and then you can go back to the beginning of the story and rewrite any initial personality traits that don't correspond to the finalized form.
     
  2. Paul_V

    Paul_V New Member

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    I acknowledge that everyone has their own way of writing, but that seems a bit too disorganised for me. It seems like a lot of unnecessary work. Why go back and edit when you can begin a story with an already formed character? Personally, I would never jump blindly into a project without first knowing fully well the tools that I will be needing (the characters, the setting, the plot, etc).
     
  3. Aeroflot

    Aeroflot New Member

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    It's not unnecessary work if you're having fun! ;)

    Thing is, I'm fearful of stunting my creative growth by copying other author's methods of writing. Even outlining the story with beginning, middle, end is too constricting for me. How would writing develop without doing something different? Your writing could utterly suck by comparison with contemporary authors, but be popular with readers. You always hear headlines like "critics rejected the book, yet there's a strong cult following..." and that's because the people like the original writing. Something clicked with them. After so much of one way of writing, people become tired of it.
     
  4. UnknownBearing

    UnknownBearing New Member

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    most of my creative ideas happen by accident. i don't think i've ever actually sat down and said "ok, this is what i'm gonna do."

    the other day i invented Rashid Haddad, born with a deadly virus inside his body. He has a mutation that gives him an immunity to his own virus. when in danger, he may wound someone, slice open his hand with his knife, and make blood to blood contact, infecting that person and killing them instantaneously. his fundamentalist islamic backround enables him to harm himself in order to use this ability, but his extreme faith also makes him question the entire situation. what kind of God would give him this kind of gift? it must obviously mean something, and He must have a divine plan for Rashid. Rashid means "man of wise council, or wise in the faith." reflectively, he is very intelligent, and has trouble viewing this ability as a gift, nevertheless striving to use it to fight the Great Satan.

    that was one study hall.

    when making characters, i often do try to get a description down intentionally, and this is something i want to break out of. i really want to get into the habit of having the characters create themselves, like Rashid Haddad. i want characters to be dynamic, and i find that if i have a laid out plan, they're less likely to change.
     
  5. Agreen

    Agreen Faceless Man Contributor

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    I've found you can plan your characters all you want, but if you want to see them grow and develop you've just got to write them- if you're being honest with them, you'll find their voice and mannerisms and they'll be much more interesting than any list of characteristics.
     
  6. Paul_V

    Paul_V New Member

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    I see. Well, our creative processes are different. Left on their own, my characters don't grow. My plots don't advance. Things do not move unless I take the time and effort to make them move. I don't do things "by the book" (oh, the irony of that statement), but I have to plan everything because it just won't come out on his own.

    Also, I don't get this:

    How is this supposed to happen? How are figments of my imagination going to develop something without my knowledge? While I agree that one might change their characters as you write (as is only natural, for it's normal that experiences end up changing people), I don't understand how I will find their "voice" or their "mannerisms."
     
  7. Aeroflot

    Aeroflot New Member

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    I can explain this one. First you have to set your mind to think in a different way.

    This is how I generally view writers: "Okay, so I'm gonna write a story. I got this plot here that's got tons of twists and turns, some characters that I'll put here and there to get the story moving, add a couple more so the plot works, then add this form symbolism, and to top it off--a theme." Or something like that lol.

    Okay, then there's another way: "Okay, so I got this character with a goal, and there's a second character with a goal that opposes the first. Lets throw them into a world and watch their ideologies clash." Which means that you're not going to know what your story is until the characters meet, something happens, and the story hits it off. You're right, you're not going to know how the story is going to develop. That's part of the fun. It's not about the goal of winning a prize, but about the glory of writing for writing's sake. Ideas come to me all day about what I'm going to add to the story next. It's fun to contemplate whether or not the idea can go into the story. In a way, this freestyle way is better, because the subconscious can create such scenes you'd never ever think up. Mannerisms are going to come through sheer inspiration. For instance, I just watched Suicide Club and decided to thrown in a disturbed detective into my story. It worked well, because I already had a kidnap victim and criminal. You know, whatever fits.
     
  8. Agreen

    Agreen Faceless Man Contributor

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    In short, by writing them.

    Answering the question in full is a bit like trying to answer the question 'where do plots come from?' it's going to be different for every writer. I'll give you an example of how it's worked for me- for my current project, the MC used to be completely different- she was passive, sad and frightened a great deal of the time. And every scene written with her was flat. For a long time I wondered exactly why and where I'd gone wrong. I examined scenes from her perspective, and when I rewrote her scenes noticed significant changes- a certain tiredness emerged, a mask of anger through which she filtered all of her interactions.

    Beyond considering how she felt about her circumstances, I can't explain where the change emerged. What helped was asking questions- why do you/they feel this way, what do you/they think about this... and most importantly, what do you want, what have you done for it and what will you do for it? When you know the answers to these questions beyond figures of plot but as actual motivations, you'll know your characters. At least, that's how it works for me.
     
  9. Paul_V

    Paul_V New Member

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    No, that's definitely not how I do things. Neither of those methods comes even remotely close to how I do things. It's much, much more complicated. It involves thinking about everything at the same time. The characters, the plot, the setting, the theme, everything is so intimately tied together that you can't select one over the other.

    If I had to describe how I tackled my novel, it'd go something like this: "So I have this universe. These are the beings and creatures that live in it. What would be the logical development of these races? Would anyone try to take control of the rest? Who would stop them? How would other races react to this? What about their daily lives? History? Geography? Languages? Achievements? Wars? Etc, etc." And this has nothing to do with the actual plot. You could say that I care so little about the plot that it doesn't become a focal point until the 5th book (the one before last). Before that, it's simply ominously hanging in the background. Why? Because I will spend around four books focused on the characters and their struggles to get over what happens to them and work as a team.

    Honestly? I need the order, but I'm not crazy about it. I need some semblance of a workframe in order to guide myself. I can't just sit and write. You can't do that when you have created universes from scratch. There are too many things that you have to take into consideration before you can actually begin to write the story. I don't plan everything in advance, either, because I necessarily must keep my options open, in case I'm forced to change something (something I've learned the hard way).

    No, it seems neither of you get what I'm asking. I'm not saying that my characters are empty or simply plot-puppets. I'm saying that I can't be surprised by them because I know them so well. I've already asked all those questions to my characters, in order to get to know them. I've placed them in hypothetical scenarios to see how they would react. I've placed them in the same room together and saw what each of them thought of the others. And that's exactly why they can't surprise me.

    Assume this: Nataly is a priestess of the goddess of love. She is a gentle soul who has managed to retain compassion and innocence in a cruel and harsh world. She carries on despite failure after failure simply out of faith. She feels that she's doing the right thing, and that her goddess is with her. Having established that, it wouldn't surprise me if she stopped her important quest for a moment in order to give money to a beggar. That's simply how she is. It would surprise me, however, if she used physical violence unless as a completely last resort. It would be totally out of character for her, so I'll never make her do that (unless she's being mind-controlled or something like that, but I try to avoid clichés).

    I think that the difference between me and the rest of you is that I don't put "actually writing the story" on top of my priority list. Many, many things come before that, and getting to know my characters is one of them. I want to know everything about them, I want them to be as realistic as possible. I want them to be like real people. That's why, when I finally sit down and write, things just flow. Nothing surprises me, because the only thing that could surprise me is if they acted out of character, something that can only happen if I make it so. If I allow my characters to act naturally, then they will do what comes natural to them, something that can hardly surprise me. After all, would you be surprised if your best friend acted as he/she always does?
     
  10. Agreen

    Agreen Faceless Man Contributor

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    Paul_V: In considering this post, several very different, mutually exclusive methods cross my mind. The non-committal 'what works for you doesn't always work for me, and what works for me doesn't always work for you," the drive-by snooty post, a point-by-point response- all of them in a way accurately reflect my thoughts on the matter and each and every one of them would be "in character" for me. And I find that process utterly fascinating- despite the fact I think I've got a fairly reasonable hold on my personality and way of thinking, I still don't quite know what I'm going to say- what words to emphasize, how obtuse will I make the jokes... Indeed, how much of this post is influenced by the fact I just had a delicious lunch? How much of its tone is set by the fact that a wisdom tooth is slowly driving me crazy?

    My point is, in any situation there is a reasonable arc of possible responses- all of them fit my nature, yet are at least subtly and in some cases significantly different. And as I said before, I find this subtle uncertainty absolutely fascinating, and I allow it to carry over into the writing of my characters- in what ways will that extra colour of description influence a scene's tone, or how will a particular way of phrasing a thought, or the harshness of a joke redirect the scene's dialogue? But while interesting, those are simple surprises. A larger surprise comes when my character is threatened alone at night by a thug quite literally twice her size- and instead of cowering in fear or trying to outwit the him, she speaks aggressively to him. Shocking, and I know this character very well. And besides... how well can you ever truly know someone anyway?

    I see your point, but at least for me, that random act of anger and violence is infinitely more interesting from this character than all the beggar-donating in the world could possibly be- because it breaks her mundane pattern. If not adding depth, it at least adds uncertainty, and as a reader and writer I love a degree of uncertainty. Indeed, I'm confronting a similar situation in which a healer has just (accidentally and in self-defense) killed someone. She isn't a good person, no reasonable person would lay any blame on her, yet she is deeply troubled by what she's done, and I didn't see it coming.

    Still, writing is a complex art with no single proper method and a great many working ones. To me, the discoveries and little surprises about my characters is one of the most satisfying parts of the story- I love seeing them grow in the ways I've expected... but even more, I love seeing them develop in ways I'd never thought possible. At the same time, to many writers including yourself obviously, my method is every bit as bewildering as yours is to me.

    That is, after all, why this thread is entitled "Do They write themselves?" and not "They write themselves!" or "They don't write themselves!" :)
     
  11. samessex

    samessex New Member

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    hi.
    yes i have found that. being a fairly new writer, i havent had a great deal of experience with this, however with the story im writing at the moment that problem has presented itself a few times. I have been trying to get my two leading characters together for sometime and every time i do, they are having none of it! :(
     
  12. samessex

    samessex New Member

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    It's not unnecessary work if you're having fun!

    Thing is, I'm fearful of stunting my creative growth by copying other author's methods of writing. Even outlining the story with beginning, middle, end is too constricting for me. How would writing develop without doing something different? Your writing could utterly suck by comparison with contemporary authors, but be popular with readers. You always hear headlines like "critics rejected the book, yet there's a strong cult following..." and that's because the people like the original writing. Something clicked with them. After so much of one way of writing, people become tired of it.


    I totally agree with this statement. its impossible for me to create a beginning a middle and and end from scratch and religiously follow it. like others have said, your characters kind of lead the way and you find yourself following them and becoming surprised at what they do next! i just ride the adventure with them and write down whatever comes my way!
     
  13. architectus

    architectus Banned

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    Paul, what is your definition of surprise?

    Say you know your wife, girlfriend, mother, or whoever really well, and I mean really well. Could they surprise you? Would they have to do something out of character in order to surprise you?
     

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