Slendermess

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by TheLeonard112, Jun 5, 2014.

  1. Killian Jones

    Killian Jones Banned

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    Biologically speaking, the pre-frontal cotex of the brain doesn't reach final maturity until the 30's or 40's, according to some research. This is the area of the brain that determines planning and decision-making, and it is also a key area for social behavior, social awareness, for empathy and understanding and interacting with other people, and various personality traits.

    It is not a biological question, but rather a societal one. We know for certain that we give individuals adult consequences before their brain is fully matured. The question is at what point do we feel that an individual understands consequences for their actions.

    There is also the bigger debate which is that children today are maturing more rapidly than in the past, so perhaps the 'goalposts' should be re-examined.
     
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  2. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    You're late to the party @thirdwind. They were charged as adults because that is what Wisconsin state law dictates is the default charge. The hearing to determine if they should be charged as juveniles is yet to come.
     
  3. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    :confused:
     
  4. Killian Jones

    Killian Jones Banned

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    So they were charged as adults, but they still need to determine if they will be tried as adults?
     
  5. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    It looks that way. I just looked through the state law regarding this. Most likely they'll be tried in adult court because there are certain criteria that need to be met for the case to be transferred, and I doubt they'll be met.

    Also, Wisconsin has some weird laws for juvenile offenders.
     
  6. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    I'd very much like to read that research. Do you have links?
     
  7. Killian Jones

    Killian Jones Banned

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    It was research done by Professor Blakemore from the Intstute of Cognitive Nueroscience at University College London.

    This article references the research.
     
  8. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    I think you'd need to define, maturity, @Killian Jones. There's lots of evidence we continue to go through developmental stages throughout life.

    I notice one of the comments asked the same as I did:
    I would quibble with the claim that is a "clear cut definition for scientists".


    Re charged as adults, in the state of Wisconsin it depends on the crime and the age which court is the default court. But any attorney that didn't petition to change these cases to juvenile court would be incompetent. So yes, the hearing is still to come.

    The news media jumps on these things and people draw false conclusions based on inadequate evidence, such as thinking this a was a prosecutorial rather than a procedural decision.
     
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  9. Killian Jones

    Killian Jones Banned

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    Well, the point I was making is that we enact punishment at the fullest extent on people who are not fully mature. I don't think an 18 year old has the capacity to understand death and consequences as well as a 40 year old and yet we consider 18 good enough.

    I think that any type of maturity scale is fluid and doesn't apply to all people at all ages.
     
  10. Dean Stride

    Dean Stride Senior Member

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    Are you telling me they're not psychotic? How do you go through with something like this and then maintain balanced mental composure?

    And when it comes tricking supposed professionals, I do believe it is more than a fitting analogy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
  11. Robert_S

    Robert_S Senior Member

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    I don't understand the underlying details of law. That pdf you posted has this statute 938.18:

    WAIVER OF JUVENILES TO ADULT COURT [s. 938.18, Stats.]
    WHO MAY BE WAIVED INTO ADULT COURT
    A juvenile who meets any of the following conditions may be waived into adult court:

    The juvenile is alleged to have violated one of the following offenses on or after the
    juvenile’s 14th birthday:
    o Felony murder.
    o Second-degree reckless homicide.

    And then this:

    ORIGINAL ADULT COURT JURISDICTION [s. 938.183, Stats.]
    JUVENILES OVER WHOM THE ADULT COURT HAS ORIGINAL JURISDICTION
    An adult court has original jurisdiction over all of the following:

    A juvenile who is alleged to have attempted or committed first-degree intentional
    homicide or to have committed first- or second-degree reckless homicide on or after
    the juvenile’s 10th birthday.


    So the question is when does statute 938.183 take precedence over statute 938.13?
     
  12. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    1.) There are an incredibly large number of murderers who aren't psychotic. In fact the vast majority of psychotics are entirely non-violent, and more likely to be the victims of violence then it's cause.

    2.) Are you trying to tell us that a 12 year old is capable of outwitting an adult with literally a doctorate in seeing through bullshit?
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
  13. Robert_S

    Robert_S Senior Member

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    I say yes. Having a doctorate doesn't give you ESP. Plenty of cases of people with doctorates being absolute idiots. And there is no doctorate of seeing through bullshit. It's quite possible that said doctorate was nudging and stuffing circumstances to fit a known pattern.

    I'm reserving judgement only to say that this case is special and should be treated as such.

    Truth is, most people lack empathy. We're selfish at the core, most people that is. We don't commit crimes because we fear the consequence, not because it's wrong by any central moral guiding principle. I myself have trouble understanding why it's wrong to kill some people. Hell, life doesn't have a happy ending. Everybody dies. Why shouldn't some bad people die sooner rather than later? The US issued a kill on sight order for Bin Laden who coordinated the murder of thousands, but there are bankers who wrecked the lives of millions and they walked away with all the money they gained doing it. Why shouldn't some people die earlier than others?

    I'm not saying the victim deserved it. I'm saying that most people lack the empathy to care and at 12 yrs of age, if you don't have it, you're not going to care about the life of another, especially if the family you were raised in was self-absorbed.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
  14. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    Somewhere I thought I saw the 10 and older applying to premeditated attempted murder. I'll have to look again. It was one of the more confusing state laws I've looked into.
     
  15. Robert_S

    Robert_S Senior Member

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    Tell me about it. It's why I find law and business so abhorrent.
     
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  16. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    By the legal and medical diagnosis, they do not appear to be psychotic. That diagnosis involves a complete break from reality, not just a fantasy. The Aurora movie house shooter appeared to be psychotic when he took on the role of the Joker in Batman.

    As for psychopath, as in the diagnosis we think of with serial murderers, I don't see these two fitting that pattern either. But at least one of them may have a psychopathic personality. The psychopath is someone like Jeffrey Dahlmer who thought he could control a person by drilling a hole in their head, and he thought eating brains and what not had some significance.

    There are specific symptoms and behaviors that make these diagnoses and no one can say for sure simply from news reports.
     
  17. Dean Stride

    Dean Stride Senior Member

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    You don't need to be a serial killer to be a psychopath. There is no clear cut definition of what a "psychopath" is; no checklist, so to speak. However, I agree that a break from reality is what underlines the condition, but I don't think it has to be a complete one. I don't even know how one can determine if another has "completely" broken from reality.
     
  18. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    While it's remotely possible, and certainly there are plenty of incompetent medical providers out there including some hired by the courts, I can't see these two turning out to be anything but rather not-so-clever. I don't see anything that indicates they are clever conniving prodigies. Really, hiding their plans which was mentioned as evidence of being clever, no. Most parents couldn't imagine their kids doing something like this so they'd have confirmation-bias blindness.


    We have different underlying premises about human nature.

    I believe most people have empathy and don't break laws because our morality evolved and while it is affected by nature, there's a large nurture component there as well.

    Some moral choices have wider ranges. Kids lie, probably adults don't have an innate barrier to lying. And stealing has some quirks, like people view stealing from the company differently from stealing from one's neighbor's house.

    I do believe a fairly large proportion of the population is greedy, I just wouldn't chuck it up to the majority. Those CEOs and financial institution crooks are where a disproportionate number of greedy people end up. We agree on that one.
     
  19. thirdwind

    thirdwind Member Contest Administrator Reviewer Contributor

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    It applies to juveniles 10 or older who attempt or commit 1st degree intentional murder or 1st or 2nd degree reckless homicide.
     
  20. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    Well that's all nihilistic bullshit, frankly.

    For a start most people not only have empathy (I'd be interested to hear why you thing most don't), but it's hardwired into your physiology to care for other people. It's called mirror-neurons and here's a study using firewalkers just to add to the awesome.

    In fact most people don't commit crimes because they feel that committing crimes harms society. A persons first instinct is to help another person.

    If you don't understand why murdering is wrong, that's on you, but don't drag us down into your nihilistic hell pit with you.

    As for psychologists: You'd be amazed at how smart you need to be to get a PhD. It's not just a decade of school and the recognition of a incredibly small group of peers. It's concentration and dedication that you don't see in most people, and denigrating them doesn't make them stupider then you are. Psychologists (especially criminal psychologists) have tons of information at their disposal concerning everything from patterns of lies to which muscle movements might indicate the patient doesn't believe what they're saying.
     
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  21. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Banned Contributor

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    You are absolutely wrong, there is a huge set of criteria for being a psychopath, a totally existing real and true checklist, so to speak.

    EDIT: nuts I can't find a copy of the DSM-V online. This will have to do.
     
  22. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    The terminology for psychopathology is anti-social personality disorder

    Most online sources discuss changes in the diagnostic criteria from IV to V, but this is close enough:
     
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  23. Robert_S

    Robert_S Senior Member

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    Because we have to have laws. So many people would commit crimes of opportunity if there weren't laws.

    Your link is not loading. It's hanging.

    So basically, you can't explain why, because you haven't. That comes across as you simply following a rule and not able to explain the justification.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2014
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  24. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

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    But there's a difference between, we need laws because some people are criminals, and, most people would be criminals if there were no laws.
     
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  25. chicagoliz

    chicagoliz Contributor Contributor

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    I agree with both of these. Regardless of age, if an individual was capable of premeditating -- that is, planning and thinking about how to kill a person AND was actually capable of carrying out that act, and the method by which the attempted killing occurred was actually likely to succeed or did, in fact, succeed, I've got no problem with that person being put away for the rest of their life. Anyone who does this has got something seriously wrong with them. I understand the whole thing about the prefrontal cortex not being fully developed until 25 or so and all that. And that's an argument for cutting some extra slack on a lot of things, and maybe even for regulation of when people can engage in certain activities. But as far as murder -- well, most people don't attempt murder. So if someone comes up with this idea on their own, well, we're better off without them.
     

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