1. TheEndOfMrsY

    TheEndOfMrsY Active Member

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    SPAG issues in manuscripts

    Discussion in 'Revision and Editing' started by TheEndOfMrsY, Jan 7, 2021.

    ***sorry if this is in the wrong section, Admins feel free to move it if so***

    I'm going into my third draft of a novel I'm hoping to send to some publishers. I've found a few who are looking for my genre/style of writing.

    I'm not worried that it will be rejected because they don't like the story, it's inevitable that that will happen with some (maybe all) and i'm okay with knowing that they felt the story wasn't good enough to be published. It's part of it all really.

    My fear is that it will be rejected because of SPAG issues.

    I have a really bad habit of misusing colons, semi colons and just general punctuation.
    It seems to be getting slightly better since I've opened myself to critique on here and some of the work I've posted seems to show signs of improvement.
    I don't know if its because I've been so out of practise until I restarted writing a few months ago or if it's just a problem I have but it's a big issue anyway.

    I'm worried that my manuscripts will be rejected just for the sole purpose of my SPAG issues, that's the thing I'd feel pretty disappointed in myself being rejected for.

    My question is, will this be a major issue for publishers or is that something that gets looked at afterwards?
    If not, can I get a BETA reader solely for grammar edits?
    Or is it worth paying for an editor before I send?

    I've also looked at paying for Gramerly but I feel like that won't help me learn!
    Or is there some learning sites I can look at to retrain my brain out of these bad habits?
     
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  2. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    Disclaimer: I'm not published.

    From all I've read, an agent is a businessman first and foremost. He/She will take on work that she feels will sell, and then get you the best deal possible. That means they look for a gripping storyline, a distinct voice, three-dimensional characters, and a first paragraph/page that pulls them into conflict.

    They are looking for manuscripts above and beyond the masses; which means not only competence but excellence. Your manuscript will be competing against a whole lot of others in the slush-pile of an agent's inbox and has to stand out.

    Regular SPaG errors don't spell 'competence', and definitely not 'excellence'. I'm not talking about the odd one here or there, but issues that occur regularly. Think about the viewpoint of a reader: If you read a book and it's riddled with errors, they do pull you out of the story, don't they? If I were an agent, I wouldn't take such a manuscript on.

    So what can you do? You could give it to Beta readers with the particular question to help you correct SPaGs. However, I feel it best and you say so as well, that you learn to take care of your shortcomings yourself. There are lots of good resource sites out there that can help you

    Like this one (free): https://www.ole.bris.ac.uk/bbcswebdav/courses/Study_Skills/grammar-and-punctuation/index.html#/

    Or the Chicago Manual of Style, very, very comprehensive https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/home.html (it's a payed resource, though).

    If you get an agent and she secures a deal for you, you'll get an editor anyway so I feel that to spend money beforehand on specific SPaG editing might not be worth it; not when you can learn how to do it yourself. I promise, you can :)
     
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  3. TheEndOfMrsY

    TheEndOfMrsY Active Member

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    Thank you, this is really helpful!
     
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  4. More

    More Active Member

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    I have managed to make it to the final end of life , but still not managed to master the basics of English grammar. I'm going with the idea , it's never too late and work my way through an English grammar work book . I don't fill in the answers, I write it down on paper . When I redo it for the second/third? time ,I can see an improvement, that is encouraging. It is a start , stop and start agine process , but persistence will be rewarded . As for the submissions. It has already been pointed out , publishing is a business . One of the questions in the mind of a publisher when reading a new manuscript, how much time will be needed to make the manuscript publishable. Lots of errors, equals reject. You actuly don't need to be a grammar expert to write presentable fiction . But constantly practising will help you to spot the errors yourself
     
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  5. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I've found it works best to check for particular issues that you've noticed in your work. Example, if you think (or have been told) that you have problems with colons and semicolons, then study up on that. Keep that one issue specifically in mind and go through and do an edit pass on a story, try to use them properly. Go back again and read the rules for colons and semicolons, and check over your edits again. You might need to do this several times before you really learn it and can do it on y0ur own, and you may still need refreshers now and then. Learning requires this period of applying what you've read before it really sinks in.

    Then go to work on your next problem area, whatever that may be. What you're trying to do is change yourself gradually, stage by stage, into an effective writer with a good command of the language (which we don't really need until we decide we want to be writers).

    But that said, it's also helpful to browse randomly through a style manual now and then. Maybe do it every night for a half hour or so, or once a week. You'll suddenly run across rules you were totally unaware of and decide you want to learn. It will take some time and repeated work sessions to learn each one, but this is the way you learn anything as complicated as a language.

    The really cool thing about it is that language is what allows us to think clearly and effectively, as well as to communicate. The better you get at it, the better you'll be able to think. That is fascinating and super cool!!
     
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  6. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Yeah, I'd noticed that in one of your pieces I critiqued (I think it was the ghost one). It struck me as more of a style thing than an a repeated misuse of grammar... almost like you were doing it intentionally. That has the potential to be an instant rejection regardless of content because, as others have said, the saleability of the product is directly tied to how much work it needs to be presentable.

    Honestly, I would continue to try to improve your grammatical skills, but still pay for a professional SPAG edit. It will be pricey, but not as bad as a line edit or developmental edit. Otherwise, you might "waste" years trying to dial the punctuation thing in... time that be better spent writing and submitting without inhibition.
     
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  7. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Specifically on colons and semicolons, I would just not use them in stories. Colons feel more at home in technical writing or a textbook or something, and if you use semicolons it looks like writing from the Victorian era.

    Let just periods and commas do all the heavy lifting. I also use the em-dash, but you need to be careful with that. I'm a recovering em-dash addict and tend to overuse. Trying to cut down to no more than one per page, hopefully less. I try to get it out of my system here on the board and elsewhere in informal writing, but I'm afraid that just conditions me to keep using. Must be strong!
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
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  8. TheEndOfMrsY

    TheEndOfMrsY Active Member

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    Thank you everyone!
    It's given me a lot to think about.
    Honestly, I wrote a full dissertation 6 years ago and now I can't link a sentence together. Haha!
    I suppose I can only keep trying and look at paid edits if I really want to make a go of my manuscript.
     
  9. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    If it's a mess then you're lost. It won't get ever get to the big guy's desk. You've got to learn enough that you can fix everything obvious, but it doesn't have to be perfect. Even if you can get a piece dead-on aligned for Publisher A, Publisher B will want to make changes. They all have their own preferences. So understand that your piece isn't going to cross the finish line of being complete. It's just going to mill around on the homestretch, jogging in place and sipping energy drinks. Be happy when it's at that point and send it out.

    Because I mainly publish short stories, I've worked with a lot of publishers, semi-pro and pro. All of those publishers had their own in-house editors. I've even seen editors who have editors. (I guess the big editor was famous enough that they let lesser souls deal with the line edits. Then they would guide that result.) If you can get your story close enough that they take it seriously, it is a guarantee that they will proof it. Multiple times. I've never used an editor other than what the publisher provided.

    And when we say SPAG, is it really spelling? Everyone knows how to spell, or their word processor does. Even grammar doesn't affect much. The problem's mostly about where to put those commas. With those you just do the best you can while locking down the rules you're sure of. What's going to ruin a piece is weak, repetitive sentence structures and a flat voice. That's what you need to avoid, and though your drafts should fix SPAG, they should mainly be aimed at shaping sentences so that they flow. They should make sure that you phrased your ideas with good taste and punch.

    (And all of this avoids story. We're just talking mechanics here.)
     
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  10. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    Ah yes, butt even if every word is write, it could still bee full of airs. Then ewe knead two Sikh advise. ;)
     
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  11. Seven Crowns

    Seven Crowns Moderator Staff Supporter Contributor Contest Winner 2022

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    That's true. You know my sister just published a short story and wanted me to read it. The piece is already out in the wild, and I caught a "poured over the book" in the text and just felt terrible. You can do that with gravy, but not by reading words. Those do slip through. I didn't say anything about it though. What would be the use in that? (She should have sent it to me first.) It was a really good story. We have the same sense of humor and it was a blast reading jokes that I could have said myself but never thought to. She's so sarcastic. haha!

    I just caught a "from whence" in one of Dan Simmons's books, and he's usually dead on perfect. (That phrase is flawed. It basically means "from from where.") It's kind of like saying "ad hominem attack." (an unfair attack attack). Editors don't even fix everything. Writers really can't either. Just get as close as you can.
     
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  12. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    I see that all the time in high level publications. I'm convinced there are editors that don't know the difference.
     
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  13. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    I'm convinced editors and the general public were far more literate in decades gone by. Of course I was a kid in the 60's, but I don't remember seeing any obvious errors in books in the 60's or 70's. It seems like around the 80's or 90's egregious errors started showing up more and more. Today I think too many people, including editors who should now better, depend on spellcheck to fix everything. When there was no spellcheck it required careful human scrutiny, but once machines took over that function it's like people just relaxed and stopped working so hard at it.

    Yeah, if the words are spelled right but are the wrong words (like weary instead of wary), spellcheck can't fix that.
     
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  14. TheEndOfMrsY

    TheEndOfMrsY Active Member

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    That's true. I think I know where I'm going wrong. I seem to be using commas in places where most should be full stops.
    I'm going to go through some of my work and see if I can replace some to find if it still all reads how I think it should.
    I think because when I talk, I ramble a lot so I'm probably typing in the same way
     
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  15. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Ah, a ramble-typer, eh? I tend to do that sometimes, and have to break it up in edits.
     
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  16. TheEndOfMrsY

    TheEndOfMrsY Active Member

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    Yes, I think that's exactly it. Typing like I'd talk! I'll just have to try and be more wary about how others would read it and not just how I would.
     
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  17. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    Nice!! :superagree:
     
  18. Naomasa298

    Naomasa298 HP: 10/190 Status: Confused Contributor

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    I use commas excessively, so that's one of the things I pay attention to when I edit. I end removing about half of what I originally put in, if not more.

    Semi colons are an occasional indulgence, like a triple white chocolate sundae.
     
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