Unfortunately, many writers are like that, including myself. I don't want a lecture. I don't only want strengths pointed out, I want every single damn flaw pointed out to me so that I can correct it and improve my work. But a blatant list of flaws knocks my self-confidence a lot. I'm not like that by choice, that's the way I am because that's how life has shaped me. But it's true of many writers, so I think it's just as important to encourage the writer as it is to point out their mistakes. For me, the two go hand-in-hand.
I'm obviously supposed to say the second one, but that's simply because it contained more information. I do admit that if you tell someone to change a character, you should also let them know what to leave the same. However, I don't find the whole "promising concept, love this character" thing helpful in a review. You didn't say anything negative about it, so why should I change it? I would rather have a more detailed overview of the flaws in the writing. If you're going to spend the time including information it might as well be information on what I should fix, as it's significantly more useful to me. Aside from that, the difference between a negative and a positive review is rarely if ever simple additional information. People take the edge off in an attempt to be less scathing, and that shoots the review in the foot. More than likely you're going to get: "I really liked the story concept and the characters were good, but you had a few grammatical mistakes that needed fixing before it could be perfect." as opposed to "You have grammatical mistakes here, here, and here. You could probably include a bit more description on the setting, as well." Now, which of THOSE was more helpful?
More often than not, though, you lose the edge of a helpful review in trying to make the review encouraging. When someone points out my flaws, I see no need to be insulted. I asked for help and they gave it to me.
I've never taken a review badly. No point in it. Even when the person was literally just saying what they were saying to be insulting in every possible way. But like many of you have said, you want someone to point out every single flaw and none of the good points. As a reviewer that WAS doing that for a while. I got sick of the abusive PM's so I don't do that naymore. I'll point out the bad points, flaws in a piece, then give compliment. People don't want just a review, they want praise as well. They always do. I have gone to a private critique group on another board though, so that takes up a lot of my time now. And believe me, their reviews are some of the harshest I have ever seen. But the most constructive I have come across thus far.
Maybe I'm biased, but I'd have to say the second one. In the first one, I wanted to stop reading after the fifth word. The second one eases into it. Brode, just because you don't want to believe that writers could have self esteem issues doesn't mean they don't. I'm not saying your supposed to sugarcoat it and say "it's perfect if you fix this" or leave out information in an attempt not to hurt someone's feelings. What I am saying is it is just much better to tell them what you liked, then tell them what you didn't like. The point of a critique isn't so much to fix the errors as it is to give suggestions to the writer. It's their story, their style, and you have to have respect for the fact that they worked hard on it. Simply going "this this and this are wrong" does not always help the writer, because they tend to think "well if you think it's all wrong, and I worked hard on it, maybe you just don't work with my style. I'll wait for information from someone who does fit better with my style" then they just take someone else's advice and your hard work critiquing is wasted.
I apologize in advance for the sarcastic tone of this reply, but I've begun to get mildly annoyed with this. Now you're honestly implying that I am not respectful of another writer's work simply because I'm not spoon-feeding them my critique? The fact of the matter is that people are not perfect, and they learn a whole lot more from pointing out places in which improvement is needed rather than places in which it isn't. Taken to the extreme, lets say you have two reviews, one pointing out only strengths and the other pointing out only weaknesses. Which does any good? I'll give you a hint: not the first one. The concept of "style" being an excuse for errors is ridiculous. No style is exempt from the fundamentals of writing, and if you use the word "style" to attempt to escape a fundamental critique, you're deluding yourself. So I'll ask you; what is the point of critique again? Is it to cater to low self-esteem and delusion, or is it to help a writer improve? The answer is obviously to help the writer improve, and in that aspect constructive criticism is more important than praise. Huh. I'll be darned. It's almost like I never said that reviews shouldn't include positive critique. It might even seem that I said the exact opposite of that. But I must be confused.
Deep breaths. LOL It seems your selfesteam mayhave been hurt by the person that tryed to say you don't recognize other peoples self esteam. Just saying, people shouldn't just point out negitives EVER because people get mad when they arn't recognized for what they did say, or said well.
I have very little self-esteem, so it's somewhat difficult to damage. I'm merely annoyed when I am accused of things I simply do not do. Now, you'll notice that I never said that just pointing out negatives was ideal. I did, however, say that pointing out negatives was more important to a writer's growth than pointing out positives. Therefore, assume a critique to be a tool of growth, it is ideal to focus on the aspects that need correction rather than the aspects that did not.
I guess my last post came off wrong i was tring to rag on the other guys post for ragging on your post incorrectly because he left out part of what you said.
Well then Brode, let me accuse you of something you did do. You twisted my words. I didn't say use only positive critique. I said use positive critique AND negative critique. What's so wrong with putting a couple sentences acknowledging the fact that the writer worked hard on their story. You twisted my words again. I did not say that you don't have respect for the fact that someone worked hard. I'm saying that it doesn't show that you have respect when you simply show them the mistakes. It makes it seem as though they worked hard and all they have left is hard work forever and it will just not get better. Just take a deep breath. It's the internet, it isn't your real life. You can critique however you want, I'm just suggesting that the critique may be more effective if you use some positive criticism AND some negatives. EDIT: I would also like to apologize for my previous post and for any harsh tone that may be in my posts. I do not mean any harm, but sometimes I get in the heat of the moment when debating. After reading my previous post, I realize that it was poorly posted. I tried to organize my thoughts somewhat better in this one.
Now who's twisting whose words? Because if you read, you'd notice a few things. The first is this: Implying that I don't already... Which I never set forth as an ideal, textbook straw man again. That's why you tell them what's wrong with it. So they get better. Why shouldn't you treat all your endeavors with the same validity? And I'm suggesting that negative is more important than positive, not that positive should be completely left out. Textbook straw man a third time. But I mean no harm. I'm merely organizing what has already been said for you.
Oh if that's what you're arguing then this has been one big string of misinterpretations haha. Yes, the negative is more important than the positive. It is the only one that can stand alone with a chance at helping the writier. I just believe it is still important to use positive as well.
I think you two need to take a break, do the peanut butter jelly dance and then come back to this with your happy heads on
An off-topic question if I may: 22 views and no replies means what exactly when a piece isn't poorly written? I've essentially got one piece as good as I can get it right now without finishing the story, barring minor editing. This being one chapter of a novel I wanted feedback on (not posted here). I acknowledge it might not be to everyone's liking considering the work contains quite a bit of swearing etc. and is more adult in nature, which is rare for fantasy. But the one person I've shown it to said it was good and could feel like they were there in the story. Which is always a good thing. Though she also pointed out the faults. Those being that the feeling of a riot sort of dissapeared after the first paragraph only to come up again and that there were some grammatical faults which I'd tried to nail prior to posting on the forum. Kinda hard to do the editing of a piece alone really. I subsequently removed it from the forum figuring I'll receive no replies and I didn't want it up for too long in the public view anyway. I assume it means either the story is poor with content or in how it's written. That or people can't find fault but don't want to give good comments. The latter highly unlikely. Normally I don't let it get to me, but seeing as it is my magnum opus so to speak, it is demoralising and quite frankly worse than a negative critique (not that I think they are bad as you can see from replies here in the thread), as you are given absolutely no idea of people's thoughts.
Don't read anything into it at all. Views include people who created accounts just so they could browse stories, also newcomers hetting tha feel of the site, and potential reviewers deciding where they can make the most effective reviews. They can also include a reviewer taking a couple looks to think what to say later. Have you noticed how many new works are posted every day? And lately, there has been an increase in frivolous postings - postings be "H1! Bye!" members not interested in comments deeper than "Awesome work, dood!" These take up reviewer time as well, which is why we are cracking down on it when we clearly see it happening. It takes away from people who are genuinely seeking help with their writing.
I agree with Cogito, here. Don't read into it. You mentioned that the work in question is not posted here, but at another site. I have noticed clique-ishness at other forums that can be the root of your issue. We do have members at this forum who are Reviewers whom you can ask for a review. Be patient, they have a lot on their plate and they have lives outside of this forum. And, honestly, get into giving you own reviews here. I have noticed that heartfelt participation tends to beget consideration.
The first review I recieved on here was from mammamia. I hated her But then i re-read what she had said and took it in. I'm stubborn and seeing the word amature next to my writing knocked my ego down enough to see what she meant. It was mostly grammatical errors and spelling/typo mistakes. But after talking to her i have found she is a really funny and understanding person who is also old enough to shout and ball at me all she wants! She has helped push me into proof reading sooner than I normally would. So thank you Mammamia
It seems I have a lot of problems with misunderstandings, so that was probably my fault to begin with. I apologize. As for the problem of having a lot of views and no re-views; more than likely all that means is that the community is feeling lazy. It's a psychological fact that reading words off of a screen is more difficult than reading words off of a page, so more than likely your viewers were simply not feeling like reading too much at the time. That's their fault, not yours. I'd recommend simply leaving it up and waiting for the right mood to roll around, or possibly splitting it into smaller fragments--I.E. posting it one chapter at a time--to get a better response.
'I assume it means either the story is poor with content or in how it's written. That or people can't find fault but don't want to give good comments. The latter highly unlikely.'- i've got this on another forum too. It does make you feel quite bad, and it was like this with one of my stories on here for a while, but when the comments did come they were good. I often click on a story, start to read, and then give up because i'm too tired or realise i have things to do, so that often contributes to people total veiws, and i'm sure there are others like it. Besides, if there was something blatantly wrong with it, i'm sure they would say.
See, I am glad to hear this. In the near future, I have an excerpt from a chapter of my novel...and I really need help which is only going to come from interested members who are trying to help and not rush for their own chance to post.
Thank you, and the others, who do a great job monitoring this site. I've seen the alternative and this place is one of the few sites I truly enjoy...thank you. .....NaCl
I've learned to take harsh critique for my fanfiction, but I'm still a newbie when it comes to taking critique for my original work. The few original works I've managed to put together were shot down by my husband and by a very good friend. The first one didn't feel bad at all, because I knew it wasn't good, but the second critique was awful because he knew it was for NaNoWriMo and I had told him that it was just a draft, nothing more. He ripped it to pieces, making me feel rather horrible. Also, when recieving critique, I've learned to understand that it's someone's opinion. If the reviewer isn't pointing out grammatical mistakes, flow problems or something that is not realistic/goes against what I've said before/is too flowery... then it's just opinions. Someone once told me that I had lost my IT. She had loved my story so much, but now it was rubbish. I had destroyed the story for her. The review was for the best chapter I had ever written. People had loved it dearly. She never pointed out anything that might have made her feel like that. She only said that she hated it. I couldn't take a review like that seriously, because she couldn't point out anything what was wrong with the chapter. I think it was then that I realised that there will always be people who won't like my work. No matter how much I love it myself, how much others might love it... there will be people who'll hate it. That's the unwritten rule of writing.
I think some people who post should be prepared that it is not a back-slapping competition. Someone takes time out from writing their own piece of work to offer some friendly advice and it's either not appreciated or others feel the need to contradict your opinion. Bottom line - if you don't like something in a critique then ignore it. I wouldn't consider myself a 'Simon Cowell' type but I do highlight problem areas more than brilliant ones because that's the only way the work is going to improve. Sometimes I just get put off reviewing
I wish someone gave me a dollar every time I tried to help someone with their writing and it turned out that they... er... "didn't want it". I'd be rich
