1. Arcadeus

    Arcadeus Senior Member

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    The 7 Seals (Religious Question)

    Discussion in 'Research' started by Arcadeus, Jan 4, 2017.

    So, the lamb releases the seals from what I understand, is Jesus?

    It's hard to interpret for me, whether it is an actual lamb, with the 7 horns and 7 eyes. (slightly creepy) or if that is just a representation for Jesus in this instance.

    I am writing a mystery thriller involving the 7 seals and the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

    One more question I have-
    What is the most commonly accepted Four Horsemen.

    I had
    Anti-Christ as 1st horseman
    War-2nd
    Famine-3rd
    Death- 4th

    I know sometimes the first horseman is thought of as pestilence or even as the Christ himself. Yet how would he release himself from a seal if he is there to break the seals?
     
  2. Commandante Lemming

    Commandante Lemming Contributor Contributor

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    Okay, so you might be overthinking it. We're (obviously) dealing with a highly allegorical book here, so trying to figure out everything doesn't always work (people try, get into huge theological blowups, and nothing comes of it)

    The lamb is usually accepted as Jesus. And it's important that the number 7 has a big historical significance in Judaism and the Bible - it's a number generally associated with perfection and with G-d (by the way, the G-d construction is a Judaic way of implying that one is not writing the actual Holy Name, which is a no-no). Anyway, the repetition of seven this and seven that is going to have a lot to do with that (and also why Satan has an repeated association with the number six). Numerology was very big in first century Judaism, and continues to be a thing to this day - not least because Hebrew as a language has no numeral characters - therefore numeric values are assigned to letters...which gives on the ability to calculate the numeric value of words, which leads to a level of scriptural interpretation based in the numeric values underlying the text.

    So, shorter answer. Judaism has a long history of spiritualizing numbers, which comes into play in Revelation, as early Christianity at that level was still a Judaic breakoff. So, once you understand that concept, the crazy numbers of horns and eyes and such on the various components of the vision start make a bit more sense. (That's not entirely new to Revelation - for instance if look at prophetic books in the Hebrew Scriptures, Zechariah has a lampstand with seven wicks, Ezekiel has to lie on his size for a certain number of days, etc.) Also, for what it's worth, if you're working with the Christian eschatological tradition - don't write off the Old Testament as a source of apocalyptic material. There's end-of-days stuff in Zephaniah, Joel, Ezekiel, and other prophets.
     
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  3. Arcadeus

    Arcadeus Senior Member

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    I don't really plan on directly mentioning G-d. I'm not going to have him cast as a character in the novel. Though I am not completely ruling out the idea of Jesus releasing the seals in vision/dreams that Valius experiences during his journey, and telling him "I am sorry my child, but it must be done." <--- or something similar to that.
     
  4. Commandante Lemming

    Commandante Lemming Contributor Contributor

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    That actually works out - however, I would point out that the idea of an apocalypse is by it's nature connected to the idea of religion. If you're jumping in, it's kind of hard to ignore the implications - depending on what the action is and what your end points are.
     
  5. Arcadeus

    Arcadeus Senior Member

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    Oh, I am definitely using religion with-in.
    I haven't fully decided on an ending that won't disappoint readers.
    Thinking something like Anti-Christ dead, but the 7th seal still gets removed while the MC pleads "no more" -Essentially ending it there.
    That would anger readers though I believe. So I have to figure out an "after" game. Because I feel like people would get angry if I left it at 6th seal.
     
  6. Arcadeus

    Arcadeus Senior Member

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    The way I look at the 7th seal, is as a cleansing of the remaining humanity left on Earth who did not repent.
     
  7. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor

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    I used Revelations as a basis for a novel I wrote a decade ago. From my recollection, in my story the 4 horsemen were Pestilence, War, Famine, and Death. In my story and from my understanding of Revelations, the anti-christ was not one of the horsemen, but the 7 headed beast that rose from the sea.
     
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  8. Arcadeus

    Arcadeus Senior Member

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    "1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. " -King James Version of the Holy Bible

    The New American Standard says pretty much the same.

    White horse, crown given to him, conquering.
    Sounds essentially like the anti-Christ to me. Which the way I interpret and will be writing things most likely. Each seal seems to lead to the next in some way. The coming of the anti-Christ, leads to War--- so on.

    I just haven't figured out the timing on the trumpets. It seems as though it is after all the seals have been released.
     
  9. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor

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    I was under the impression that by the time the 7th seal is opened, the anti-christ is not only already there, but has already built an army. The 7 plagues were sent onto the followers of the anti-christ, those with the mark of the beast (666) after the trumpets blare.
     
  10. X Equestris

    X Equestris Contributor Contributor

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    The white rider is associated with Conquest in Revelation. Many have also seen him as The Beast mentioned elsewhere in Revelation. (An important point here: while "Anti-Christ" is the Beast of Revelation in public thought, its usage in the Bible is much broader, referring to false teachers, and is never used in Revelation from what I can recall). The Pestilence interpretation seems to have come quite a bit later, but it stuck in the public imagination more.
     
  11. Arcadeus

    Arcadeus Senior Member

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    Is timing given with each seal? It doesn't say all of them are opened at once. So there is probably plenty of time from being released on the first seal for him to build an army.

    I might do a similar thing to what many writers have done in the past, and parody the events. Essentially represent G-d and the Anti-Christ with other beings.
     
  12. newjerseyrunner

    newjerseyrunner Contributor Contributor

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    I don't think so, only their order. Wait, which seal released the antichrist? I thought this discussion was about the last deal?
     
  13. Iain Aschendale

    Iain Aschendale Aunt? Supporter Contributor

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    Sounds similar to The Seventh Sign, with Demi Moore. Also, not a bad watch for research purposes, since they go extensively into the order and manifestation of the opening of the Seven Seals.
     
  14. Arcadeus

    Arcadeus Senior Member

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    Similar in that it deals with the 7 seals, but different in almost every other way. My MC is not working for some important group, nor is he wandering the world. He's just a rich asshole who doesn't like the new global order that is coming to be, and digs up dirt that leads him to find out (though believe 100% may be a different story) that the leader of the new global order is the Anti-Christ.

    Keep in mind none of this is set in stone, but he is certainly not going to be "specially chosen" or have any special powers other then being extremely stubborn and generally just a giant a-hole.
     
  15. Lonely Shadow

    Lonely Shadow Member

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    There are plenty of documentaries on History channel for something like this.
     
  16. NoGoodNobu

    NoGoodNobu Contributor Contributor

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    96E99D7C-4E9C-4D79-A24D-F7A4D8E41377-1086-000001769A2FD542_tmp.gif IMG_7535.jpg IMG_7536.jpg IMG_7537.jpg IMG_7538.jpg IMG_7539.jpg IMG_7540.jpg I've never used attachments before, so I apologize if it's messy

    Can't tell you either source's denomination, but the first seems a pre-tribulation rapture interpreter (Christians are taken up prior to release of G-d's wrath & judgment on earth)

    The first is just a neat overview of the timeline of the events. The visual placement of events can help me, personally

    The second group shows all the "Old Testament" or Jewish scriptures' that the Book of Revelation references or parallels. I agree with an earlier post suggesting Nevi'im (OT Prophecies) as other sources, information, and inspiration—particular as only the last two chapters of Revelation actually state anything entirely "new" as far as prophecy goes, if memory serves

    As a fictional work, I don't think you need to absolutely worry what each symbol is interpreted as, because there are so many varying denominations and churches and clergy and whatnot that all have their own stance on what everything means, as reasonable and unreasonable as any work of fiction

    So long as it makes sense in the context, go for it
     
  17. Arcadeus

    Arcadeus Senior Member

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    I will be sure to make use of this information. Thanks for providing it. The timeline picture shows essentially the same as I was following.
     
  18. JLT

    JLT Contributor Contributor

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    This was covered in Asimov's Guide to the Bible: The New Testament. According to Asimov, the white horse seemed to represent war from foreign invasion, particularly by the Parthians, whose mounted archers were the scourge of the East. He identifies the one on the red horse as war from within, the one on the black horse as famine (since "the price offered for a measure of wheat (a penny) is far higher than normal and is so high in fact that the ordinary populace could not buy enough to live." The rider of the black horse is Death ... not by war or famine, since those are covered by the first three riders, but by pestilence. (He notes the use of "death" in references to the "Black Death" of plague. "In short," Asimov concludes, "the four horsemen can be most briefly described as War, Revolution, Famine, and Pestilence."

    Isaac Asimov's Guide to the Bible is, in my humble opinion, the best book on the Bible ever written by an atheist. Bringing his formidable intelligence and his knowledge of the latest (for 1969) developments in Biblical and historical research to bear on the subject, he shows how many Biblical legends were in fact borrowed from other cultures, and how politics influenced the Scriptures, particularly as they reflected the actual political dynamics of the Biblical era. I highly recommend it as a source book for understanding the Bible.
     
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  19. Arcadeus

    Arcadeus Senior Member

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    There are different thought patterns depending on the religion of the interpreter, the order the text was studied, and the relation to events of the time. All of the events can relate to events involving the Romans after all, and could have already happened.
    For my book though, I wish to create something new. I am not a huge fan of historical fiction, so I am essentially going the futurism route of believe.
    As far as who the first rider represents, I will be going with the anti-Christ, as an entity that conquers in order to control. The problem with having him be from a foreign nation, is that Christianity does not belong to a single nation anymore. So to look at it as revolution, would have to be on a bigger picture, if revelations was relating to the future.
    However, if I parody this as a fantasy, I still think it would increase the pressure on the main character if people view the villain as "uniting" the world. Even if under guise.
     

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