The Assault on Cytherea and Political BS

Discussion in 'Debate Room' started by T.Trian, Feb 25, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,775
    Likes Received:
    5,385
    Location:
    Funland
    @GingerCoffee Thanks for your input, I'll acquaint myself with the info you dug up. Whenever you dig deeper, there's always something to be uncovered that helps to reevaluate one's views. E.g the article I linked previously regarding sex workers and feminists' attitudes provided misinformation about Nordic prostitution laws and, since biased, ignored research that shows the other side of the coin. Perhaps partly because they don't speak Swedish, but it wouldn't fit their agenda either.
     
    BayView and GingerCoffee like this.
  2. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,775
    Likes Received:
    5,385
    Location:
    Funland
    Okay, so that's pretty dodgy. On the other hand, when she says rape has been on the decline since early '90s, where she gets her funding doesn't matter at that point. This stat seems to be provided by your government, not research paid by rape apologists. Congrats, you're doing better than Finland. Sure, a lot is left unreported, but I'd hope reporting has become easier and convictions more common since 1993. I disagree with her on some isssues but at least on her videos, she seems quite open to opposite views and new ideas. But yeah, this is a tad OT.
     
  3. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,551
    Likes Received:
    2,074
    Location:
    Denver
    Well then here's an on topic review of the woman's research the Washington Post isn't very impressed with her feminist apologetic, her "research" or her conclusions.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/books/reviews/waragainstboys0703.htm

    Media Matters points out here that her claims about the survey for the 1 in 5 statistic actually make the survey more accurate. I'm not sure why she thinks that paying people to take part in a survey will skew the results, the respondents are not being paid for specific answers. Unless she's trying to out the process through which every cultural study has been done for the past 100 years she's on very shaky ground.

    When your choice in feminist speaker is one who has made money off of books about the evils of feminism on boys and men, your claims to support women go straight into the toilet.
     
  4. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,775
    Likes Received:
    5,385
    Location:
    Funland
    Since I'm speaking from a toilet, you probably won't read my response, but that research has been criticized by others too. In a way it doesn't matter that much for me to debunk this 'cause I recognize there are problems with how rape victims are treated when they seek justice and that even one rape is too much, but I think I'm more invested in this on a personal level 'cause it seems to devalue rape. I know it's not a competition between who has suffered the most, but I also think unwanted sexual encounters shouldn't all be lumped together under 'rape'.

    My reaction stems from reading something like this (from your MediaMatters link):
    How can people disagree on what rape is? Sure, you might not know what exactly transpired, but if the respondent doesn't know how rape is defined, especially in that survey, they could offer a definition?

    Then this:

    I think I'm going to need help with deciphering how this makes the survey more reliable. I guess they didn't count those questions/question as evidence of rape...
    Unwanted sexual experiences are not always rape. They suck, yeah, they can leave you feeling dirty, even bruised and traumatized if you fought off your assailant, but it's not the same as a man forcing himself into you, out of you, into you, out of you, or doing the same with some appliance or a finger, or does either or both to your passed out body. Or maybe it's just me, maybe I "rate" my experiences differently. I shouldn't tell others how to feel, yeah, some take certain things more heavily, but since we're talking about also dishing out punishments, lines have to be drawn somewhere. I appreciate the WH seeking to allow people who've never reported the rape to "report" it now, but they could've been more specific with their questions and, if possible, tried to acquire more responses. I guess I'm also saddened that if I were ever to join a rape survivors' support group and expressed how the current rape narrative made me feel in the light of my own experiences, my input would be equivalent to piss, shit and vomit.

    And just for the record, it is exactly her comments on the evils of feminism affecting men I largely disagree with.

    My broadcast from the toilet bowl is over.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2015
    T.Trian likes this.
  5. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,051
    Likes Received:
    4,539
    What comments on affecting men is she making, if you don't mind my asking.

    Id look myself but too many links at this point
     
  6. Jack Asher

    Jack Asher Wildly experimental Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,551
    Likes Received:
    2,074
    Location:
    Denver
    Well it looks like you answered your own question. That would be how people can disagree.

    Of course when you make terms like "sexual assault" or "sexual harassment" people are much more likely to add experiences that fit those terms then they are with "rape", which is why the study got the results that it did.

    But this is entirely beside the point. Sommers has been taped to give chauvinists something to hang on to. They can look at her work and say, "Well there's a feminist that makes me feel safe, why all the other feminists are threatening. Of course I must not be sexist, because there's a feminist I can agree with."

    She's the Michelle Malkin of gender relations, and just as pathetic.
     
  7. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,390
    Likes Received:
    6,843
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Climate change was just an easy example to demonstrate that AEI is all about distorting facts to support right wing ideology.

    The Libertarians, which it seems clear Summers is, are against feminists that call for legislative solutions. It behoves them to find data that diminishes the problem. Feminists who want legislative solutions are going to look for data that exaggerates the data.

    So I look at all the data with consideration of the limitations of the data and/or collection method. Hospital and coroner data is going to be more objective than a survey of college students with an unproven survey tool. In medicine when we use a survey, you look to see if the survey tool itself was tested and that questions are verified by asking the same thing in different ways. The answers should then correlate.

    If I wanted to find the most accurate numbers, it would take hours, looking at the methodology as well as the original source of the data.

    Just looking at the data in the link you cited, violent crime has gone down overall. To see forceable rape go down in the same way doesn't say much. It wouldn't mean much about the rape culture on US college campuses which seems to involve a lot of alcohol and date rape.

    Also from the DoJ, results from better surveys and data collection (see page 2 where methodology is described, something missing from a lot of reports):
    Rape and Sexual Assault Victimization Among College-Age Females, 1995–2013
    Tables 1 & 2 show a decrease in rapes overall, matching the decrease in forcible rape in the numbers in your link.

    But how relevant are the numbers to the rape culture on campus?

    Pretty sure Media Matters is more reliable that Time. Media Matters cites their sources and lets you know what they are basing their conclusions on. Some people may not like the fact that reality has a liberal bias, but it's about supporting your conclusions, not your political ideology.

    How does that make the data less reliable or accurate? The report is talking about sexual assault as well as forcible rape.

    I've linked to the actual report I think (I was posting about it before the last couple posts here). It only takes a bit of skimming to see just how carefully they detail the survey tools and methodology. That's what you want to see when these kinds of data are discussed.

    The bottom line is it behooves us all to know what definitions are being used, especially when the data is being used to support total numbers.

    But Media Matters is spelling that out for the reader rather than giving the totals without telling us what the numbers refer to.

    Why? You are looking at your answer right there. The data and methodology are being defined.

    Supporting one's conclusions about sexual assault on campuses using the stats showing a decrease in forcible rape over all is how one cherry picks data to support one's existing POV. You can look at the DoJ's Special Report and you know what the data refers to, you can see it for yourself, make your own judgement if that data supports the conclusions.

    Which is why you are seeing the term, "sexual assault" used in addition to rape. I don't see the problem as long as what the data refers to is described.
     
  8. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,775
    Likes Received:
    5,385
    Location:
    Funland
    The notion that it's the boys, not the girls who are in trouble seems odd. It's not a competition. Also, if you check her video the war on boys:have they been left behind she sums up her points. Her book The War Against Boys addresses the problem more widely. What I find dubious is claiming American feminists are somehow responsible for boys' underachievements or ignore male pupils' challenges in an already fucked up education system (sorry to say this). That's too easy. It's surprising to me cos she blames modern feminists for taking responsibility away from women yet seems to think boys should take none? She claims there's a hostile environment towards men on campuses yet that's where we should take her word for it? Like so many others, she seems to cherry-pick whatever fits her agenda, ignoring things feminists have done for boys or found out about the plight of girls.
     
    T.Trian and GingerCoffee like this.
  9. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,051
    Likes Received:
    4,539
    I have to agree. It's the school systems fault boys are lagging behind, not feninism. Though if feminism is about equality , one would think correcting this would be a goal.
     
  10. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,390
    Likes Received:
    6,843
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    And where is your evidence boys are lagging so far behind they need to given equal status among women supporting girls that are even further behind (for example in income and high paying STEM jobs)?
     
  11. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,775
    Likes Received:
    5,385
    Location:
    Funland
    Yeah, figured as much.

    Ok, thanks! And in terms of campus rape, it might not be all that relevant. Sometimes I'm confuddled when people talk of rape culture whether they refer to the entire country in all facets of life or campuses specifically. Sexual assault-wise, it's a high-risk environment. Alcohol consumption probably plays a significant part, creating gray areas.

    Possibly. I also found this by
    Washington Post
    I was questioning whether or not something that wasn't rape could have been interpreted as such.
    Yes, I can see that. This also seems to refer to previous research, right on page 2 onwards, which is helpful. I'd find this type of research useful to be carried out in Finnish campuses too.
    Yup.

    Yeah, I agree. This actually helped 'cause I struggled to find clarity among all the surveys, so thanks. I think there's still some shades of gray in terms of eg "unable to provide consent when drunk" 'cause that makes me wonder would some respondents blame it on the alcohol they had an unwanted sexual experience and had they been sober, they would've declined. In such a situation, from the man's pov it may have seemed consensual.
     
  12. 123456789

    123456789 Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Messages:
    8,051
    Likes Received:
    4,539
    Lagging behind in school? I've given you statistics before. But maybe those statistics are false I don't know. There's a link in this thread where a women (rather intelligently) explains the pay gap. Maybe that's false. Now T pointed me to a speech made by a woman who herself has been raped calling out the 1 in 5 statistic for being dishonest. Also it looks like the president of the US might be capable of lying..... Hence my new avatar, a sign of my perpetual mistrust for everything but dogs.

    In short, no Ginger I won't give you any statistics because it seems like they can always be discounted. And sure enough someone will come around to discount any statistics you give me.

    As far as STEM, I can you tell you from my personal experience that females in STEM is being pushed, but how much is one persons limited observations worth.
    We have reached an age of infinite confusion.

    The whole thing is utterly hopeless.
     
  13. T.Trian

    T.Trian Overly Pompous Bastard Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2013
    Messages:
    2,253
    Likes Received:
    1,466
    Location:
    Mushroom Land
    You've misunderstood:
    I don't criticize Sarkeesian for not mentioning the incident proactively. I'm criticizing her for not mentioning it when it was brought to her attention by someone. And no, I don't expect her to write a book about it, but I do have a hard time accepting she's so incredibly busy, a single, one-sentence tweet or a side note on a blog post or whatever is too much.

    So, by my own standards, you shouldn't criticize me for not mentioning every single rape case in the world, but if you point me to one and I ignore it completely, especially if I have as much followers/as big of an audience and as much influence as Sarkeesian, yes, you'd be in the right for criticizing me for totally ignoring the case because this is really all it takes:
    This year's rape #173 in LA County was a heinous act by a sick asshole called XYZ, but luckily he's awaiting trial now (hope they put him away for life). My heart goes out to survivor #173 and their family.

    Typing that took less than a minute, and if I had hundreds of thousands of people as not only readers, but actual fans, yeah, that'd help provide publicity for the case.


    Completely agree there. I do think a physical castration should be added to the punishment when the perp's guilt can be proven beyond any doubt.


    I don't have a problem with that. In fact, it'd be great if she did. Again, I don't expect or demand that anyone comment on every single case or spend the rest of their lives looking them up, only that when someone proactively notifies you of a case, what reason would you have to completely ignore it?


    Can't say that I disagree on the importance of all the issues you listed, just that "teach men not to rape" has become something of a mantra to a lot of folks, and it flies against what I know about self-defense and how human predators (not just rapists, but them too) behave. But that's just my personal, subjective observation (that I do believe is the truth).


    Wonder if our different locations had any part in our search results since I went through around three pages of links without finding the local article.

    So, what am I looking for: it's not about this case in specific. It could've been another case of comparable severity (i.e. not a case where someone equates killing a female player in an online game of Call of Duty to rape... yes, Patricia Hernandez wrote an article titled "Should killing female gamers in an online game be considered rape?"). The point is when you have people who've built careers as individuals who strive to improve women's status in society, wouldn't it sort of... make sense for them to at least show the courtesy of even acknowledging the case of which someone went through the trouble of informing you? My claim is that it's not that hard, it doesn't take that long, and it might, especially in the case of a charity, cause actual, concrete benefit to the survivors and their families (I'd imagine being 6 or 7yo and listening your mom get gang-raped might call for some counseling afterwards).


    I'm not so famous that someone from e.g. Tunguska would find my e-mail addy and send me a notification of a rape that happened there, but if they did, hell yeah I'd at least fucking mention it and share it on my fb page (don't have a Twitter account, but if I ever start to create a more public career, I'd get one, so I could use that too).

    Realistically speaking, this probably doesn't happen a whole lot, people notifying someone who's basically a celeb about a rape case that doesn't get much coverage. Even if e.g. Sarkeesian had mentioned it e.g. on her Twitter page, she probably wouldn't start to get thousands of messages about thousands of cases every day, right? So since it's not all that common, what possible reason is there to ignore it entirely, especially when your claim to fame is fighting for women's rights? I don't think fighting for a cause and the odd individual here and there are mutually exclusive.


    I see those discussions already get quite a bit of coverage on an international level and I, too, have spent time discussing those subjects online and IRL. Why couldn't we do both: address the big, national & international issues as well as the random individual cases that come to our attention?

    Here's a question: why are you, @BayView, and @Jack Asher so against this? Don't rape survivors deserve a bit of recognition? Are we all too busy to type and post one sentence when we didn't even need to search for the case ourselves, but someone did it for us?


    I'm not even looking for evidence, I'm just saying how it looks like from where I'm standing. Maybe you have a clearer view of where you're standing and see for a fact that Cytherea's occupation at the very least hasn't hindered her chances of getting more media attention one bit. Mind, I never claimed that she was mistreated because of her occupation. I said it looks like it could be a factor why a fairly famous feminist chose to ignore the case entirely even when all she was asked to do, was to mention it to her followers. Nobody asked her to change her opinions on sociopolitical issues, to pay a lot of money, to sell her soul etc. The only "ties" to a movement she considers her enemy is by proxy, but since Carrera didn't mention gg or any such political agenda in her plea, I don't think it'd be fair to accuse her of using Cytherea's suffering to drive a political agenda.


    It's passing around the social media on a fairly grass roots -level. And yeah, the outrage has died down a bit like it often does when a conversation stretches on. My opinion hasn't changed, though, but I see no reason to write every post in a ranty tone.
    I'm addressing pretty much everyone, but especially everyone who are interested in supporting women as a demographic as well as individuals. I'd love to see Sarkeesian acknowledge the case, but any person with a large following would be great, doesn't need to be female, doesn't even need to be a feminist, albeit I would've expected feminists to be more inclined to offer their support (that was before I heard of any kind of divide between some feminists and sex workers since I always figured sex workers, females in particular, would be one of the groups needing the most support, but live and learn, eh?).


    This is just semantics, but how can it be a lie when it's a direct quote, word for word? Sure, they took it out of context, but, like I previously said, in my eyes the meaning didn't change in any significant way when seen in its original context. Yeah, it's a dick move to take something from its context, but I wouldn't call it a lie.

    I don't think I ever claimed the victim was being mistreated, just that it's a possibility, judging by (insert the stuff from above), did I? If I did, I didn't mean to (but would appreciate if you pointed out where I said it).


    The thing I don't get is why Carrera's political opinions should have anything to do with the situation? She didn't talk about gg or politics when discussing Cytherea's case, she didn't tag any of her posts with gg or anything related, so why the prejudice that she must be up to something evil instead of being a decent human being by showing common courtesy to a suffering fellow human?


    Sorry if it bothered you or someone, but sometimes I write in a rantier tone, usually not so much, but even a rant can raise awareness. In fact, I've been notified of plenty of things via rants, so while they can sometimes trigger emotional reactions, it doesn't mean they are somehow inherently lacking.

    And yes, I mentioned Sarkeesian in specific because she's the person who ignored the case she could've supported with very minor inconvenience, and her being not only a feminist, but one who speaks a lot about victimization of women, sexual harassment, sexual violence etc. just made it all the more strange that she refused to help a woman who had gone through real rape (instead of stare rape, online insults etc, which, while unjust and shouldn't happen, hardly compare to being gang-raped IRL).

    So, pardon the ranty tone if it was distracting or offensive, I'll try to tone it down in the future.


    Yup, the tone has changed. I'm capable of changing my mind or accepting new angles to the things I'm discussing, so sue me. I thought that was a good attribute in a person instead of doggedly sticking to my guns (no pun intended) even at the face of overwhelming evidence against my stand.

    As for me claiming some feminists are standing up for women wrong... am I not allowed to have an opinion anymore? Or is it that I shouldn't have an opinion about women? Or feminists? Or why do you mention me having an opinion about how some feminists' methods compare to those of a few others in such a negative tone?

    Also... you are saying e.g. Hoff-Sommers is standing up for women wrong. How exactly is it that you have the authority to make those claims or voice those opinions, but I don't? Pot... kettle...?

    I do agree with Hoff-Sommers on some issues and disagree with her on some issues (the same applies to every person on the planet, even to @KaTrian, even if we agree on almost everything). What of it? Do you claim all her claims are inaccurate? Even when she's citing data derived from studies conducted by the government? Or what's your point? That because I disagree with her on some instances, I should ignore everything she says, or what?

    Since you still buy the 1 in 5 stat, here's what I found out about it (just copy/pasted it from the Revenge for Infidelity -thread, but you can check the CDC survey yourself):
    When the CDC telephone survey was conducted, nobody was directly asked if they had been raped or sexually assaulted. They were asked about having experienced "alcohol and drug -facilitated penetration." That includes consensual sex with your husband (or even another woman if the couple consisted of two women having penetrative sex) after a couple of glasses of wine during dinner.

    They were also asked if they had ever been pressured to have sex by being told lies, being made false promises about the future they knew to be untrue, or being pressured by the other person showing they were unhappy.

    All affirmative answers to those questions were counted as a "yes" to having experienced sexual violence, hence the 1 in 5 lifetime stat (as in it claimed 1 in 5 women experience rape/sexual violence during their lifetime, not during their college studies).

    Now, since, according to you, Hoff-Sommers isn't... what? On the list of "acceptable" feminists? Whatever her faults, are e.g. Wendy McElroy and Camille Paglia more acceptable? If not even them, who, then, are the shining beacons of... "proper" feminism? Sarkeesian and Wu? Or who?


    What do you mean by "defensiveness"? That I'm arguing my point? If so, aren't everyone participating in this thread being defensive?
    And yeah, I do maintain it wouldn't have hurt Sarkeesian to mention Cytherea's case with even one sentence. Or for anyone to do the same, especially anyone with as large and loyal an audience, when they don't even have to go through the trouble of finding the case themselves. But, of course, that's just my opinion.


    Luckily a lot of people don't dare say things IRL that they say online because IRL they might have to face actual repercussions. Sure, that makes them cowards, but, then again, that applies to a lot of people.
     
    123456789 likes this.
  14. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,390
    Likes Received:
    6,843
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    I'm not questioning lagging behind in school. The whole US school system is in bad shape.

    What I said was, why should someone interested in helping women get ahead want to spend their resources on men who while they might not be doing great, are still doing better than the women?
     
  15. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,390
    Likes Received:
    6,843
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    Do you know what was asked of Sarkeesian, and why she responded the way she did? It seems to me we need to hear from that side of the equation.
     
  16. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,338
    Likes Received:
    13,061
    Why? Is the cause of women's rights so small, so lacking in issues, that someone working on that cause would surely have a lot of free time? Do you really have trouble imagining that someone working on it would not have far, far more work than she could possibly do, even if she were to clone herself ten times?

    Is there anyone, anyone alive on our planet right now, that you could imagine being too busy to respond to a message about a crime? For example, if President Obama had been sent a similar message, would you be criticizing him for "ignoring" this case?

    Of course, the odds of getting a response from President Obama might be higher than the odds of getting a response from a prominent feminist, because the White House can pay tons of staffers to respond to messages, while our prominent feminist might want to pay her staffers to do some of that "clone herself ten times" work rather than responding to social media. But would you agree that Obama, the man himself, might be too busy to be aware of this one crime? That even if someone emailed him personally, it's possible that he would be unable to read and respond to every single mail that he gets?

    If so, then you agree that there's a threshold of busyness that means that a person cannot personally respond to each and every communication that they receive. That they cannot, in fact, personally READ each and every communication.

    Why are you assuming that the person that you're criticizing has not reached that threshold? Heck, there are days when I reach that threshold, and it would be hard to be less important than me.

    Will you be criticizing President Obama for not mentioning this case?
     
    GingerCoffee likes this.
  17. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    15,338
    Likes Received:
    13,061
    I forgot to respond to this part:

    Against what? What is it that you think we're against?

    I'm not against offering words of support to a rape survivor. I'm not against writing a check for her charity. I'm not against any of that. If you think that any of us are against any of that, you are deeply mistaken.

    I am against criticizing a public figure for being unable to take action on each and every tragedy in our society. I am against distracting from the real issues by conjuring up nonexistent motives and groundless claimed offenses.
     
    BayView likes this.
  18. GingerCoffee

    GingerCoffee Web Surfer Girl Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,390
    Likes Received:
    6,843
    Location:
    Ralph's side of the island.
    I think we're all connected to the same Internet. I first found out where this occurred then looked for Las Vegas news on a home invasion rape and it popped right up. It's all about finding the right search string.

    I'm not convinced this happened.

    It wasn't the ranty tone, it was the outrage over unsubstantiated issues.

    WOW!!!

    Seriously, you didn't see the difference? Dude, you need to look closer.

    Here's what you claimed:
    The actual quote (link posted up-thread):
    Do you see one word in that actual quote that Nelson said women should not be allowed to carry firearms, or that carrying a firearm devalued sexual assault?

    No, she said the argument implicitly devalues the problem. Arming women would only address a fraction of the problem at the expense of the rest of the issue.

    Seriously, if you can't see how the woman's words were completely changed by the rewording or her quote, you got perception problems.

    Are we defining 'mistreated' differently? Isn't a failure to cover her plight, mistreatment?

    It affected how the situation was perceived.

    I have every right to say Sommers is against legislation to help women. It's her Libertarian track record.

    Do you see women getting pay equity without legislation? Are you aware of the Lilly Ledbetter case? It's a fact Sommers is against legislating a solution. It's a fact without legislation women haven't gotten pay equity in this country.

    Nope, reread my post.

    Your wife said you'd "quite gracefully accepts the contradicting evidence -"

    I was commenting that I thought you had only admitted there was no evidence the victim's occupation was an issue with the new coverage, then doubled down on the same complaint about the victim not getting the news coverage. I didn't see that as agreeing with @KaTrian's comment.
     
  19. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,855
    Likes Received:
    11,650
    I agree to all this, but in addition: with Sarkeesian having been such a punching bag (sometimes almost literally) over her statements in fields where she's spent the time to develop some expertise, I wouldn't think it was at all surprising if she felt the need to be very careful about inserting herself into issues that she hasn't had the time to fully explore.

    The tone of the debate is so heightened (seriously, how can the debate be so heightened over something as completely obvious as treating women like human beings and not fucking raping them!) that each side is eager to jump on any possible mistatement by the other side. So I expect most prominent feminists are pretty damn careful about what they're saying/re-tweeting, because they're aware of the repercussions of any mistake. The Rolling Stone mess has surely made that clear to everyone?

    So I really don't think it would have been a question of Sarkeesian or anyone else taking a quick look at a tweet and then just thinking, sure, yeah, I'll retweet - what the hell! Rather, I would imagine they'd have wanted to look into the story, make sure it wasn't some sort of trap, make sure the money was going through proper channels so there are no allegations of fraud, etc.

    And, honestly, I do have a bit of a theoretical issue with the idea of one rape victim receiving financial compensation for her suffering when other rape victims don't. I have a bit of an issue with the possible perception that we're somehow doing something to address the damn issue by throwing money at the problem. My goal is to stop rape, not raise money to compensate women who are raped. The alleged perpetrators in this case have been caught. The victim can sue their asses for compensation.

    In terms of the "she's a sex worker" argument TTrian really seeme to want someone to make? I'm not going to make it. Sex workers can be raped - hell, they're probably the most common class of victim. I really don't think this is something feminists are unaware of.

    So, yeah, as CF says, I have no problem with someone choosing to use whatever social or financial capital they have to help anyone who's been hurt. That's your choice (and I note, T.Trian, that you have made the choice to not support this woman financially. Because, I assume, your finances are limited. But it makes it a bit weird for you to be insisting so hard that someone else support the woman with time, which is, I'm sure you know. also very limited). But when it becomes some sort of holiness test? You're not a real feminist if you don't retweet this story? That's just stupid, and absolutely I will argue against it.
     
    GingerCoffee likes this.
  20. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    10,855
    Likes Received:
    11,650
    Really? You think they should put XYZ away for life, even though he's mentally challenged, and was under the care of so-called victim #173 at the time? And when #173 was in the process of being investigated for molesting XYZ when he was in her care? You think this poor innocent should be locked up for life, just because he finally responded to the invitations 173 had been making for months? She gets walked in on while having sex with a mentally incompetent man, and screams rape rather than take responsibility for her own actions, and you want to put XYZ in jail? Typical fucking feminist, always blaming the man, no matter what the woman has done. {And then I was going to add in some nice rape threats against you, just to make this a more typical anti-Sarkeesian post, but I just couldn't bring myself to type the words}.

    This is all fictional, obviously. But until Sarkeesian actually investigates a little, everything could be a trap, or a half-story, or a cover-up. Does that make sense?
     
  21. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,474
    Likes Received:
    3,156
    Location:
    Northeast England
    Why do people bother to even acknowledge Sarkeesian's existence? She's clearly a con-artist, and anyone who takes her seriously (and god-forbid, give her YouTube channel money) have been duped.
     
    T.Trian likes this.
  22. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,775
    Likes Received:
    5,385
    Location:
    Funland
    In all fairness, she does seem to genuinely want to make things better for women. With the voice and power that she now has, she could use it to do good, worthwhile things. Maybe less criticizing of Christmas songs and more focus on talking about the importance of equality and the freedom it provides to school kids, our next generation, or working to eradicate misogyny and sexual violence among the impoverished. We should be able to build a world where girls can become fighter pilots and boys ballet dancers without gender prejudice, bullying, and constant fighting of windmills, a world where people wouldn't judge the person's abilities based on his/her gender but actual abilities, and where impoverished women's only chance to make do wouldn't be to sell her body (and men's only chance to start selling drugs). I know I'd rather give money to the street urchins of St. Petersburg or to efforts to stop female circumcisions than something like to her kickstarter about videogame sexism, but now that that's done and she has the power to make a difference, I hope she'll use it for something worthwhile.
     
    T.Trian likes this.
  23. Chinspinner

    Chinspinner Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2011
    Messages:
    1,901
    Likes Received:
    1,021
    Location:
    London, now Auckland
    I agree, but I don't think she is helping. Her message is confused and confusing to say the least.
     
    T.Trian and KaTrian like this.
  24. Lemex

    Lemex That's Lord Lemex to you. Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2007
    Messages:
    10,474
    Likes Received:
    3,156
    Location:
    Northeast England
    I don't think she wants to make things better for women. I am convinced she just wants to line her own pockets, appear on some chat shows, and then run off into the sun-set laughing at feminists all the way.

    Her kickstarter started over a year ago now, she's had - I forget how much exactly, many thousands in US dollars, and has produced in a year nothing substantial to show for it. There has been no change in her output since before she started accepting donations, and even then, look at the content. At time's it's contradictory when it isn't deliberately wrong.

    Her main criticism of the new Hitman game was that players are apparently encouraged to beat random women and put them into sexualized positions. Anyone who has played barely five minutes of the game will know you are actively discouraged from doing anything other than going after the mission target. Wasting your time with the stuff she claims is the point contradicts the tone, story and feel of the game itself, as an artistic medium. She's also claimed GTAV is a rape-fantasy game ... I mean, come on, how is anyone bought over by this nonsense?

    She has the power to do many great things, but she isn't even interested in doing even the slightest bit, and all her actions over the past year has sort of proved that.
     
    T.Trian likes this.
  25. KaTrian

    KaTrian A foolish little beast. Staff Supporter Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    6,775
    Likes Received:
    5,385
    Location:
    Funland
    Common critique towards her but it's a bit slanderous. I don't know what she could've used the rest of the money for or if she's involved in charities, so it's hard to say.
    Some women feel this way, yeah, and my recommendation is to not play those games if they disturb them so much. It's fiction, make-believe, not real life crime. I don't connect with such critics very well because I myself write of controversial things. I wouldn't buy such a game to my kid, but I wouldn't pull them off the shelves either. I would play them if they turned out to be good. Sometimes you need that Quentin Tarantino movie or GTA game to let out some steam or to give a big fat fuck-you at the humorless, PC-obsessed media. Both men and women get fucked over in those games, they are violent, lurid, exquisite fantasies, but unsurprisingly most people can separate between fantasy and real life. If she doesn't believe it, it's her right to talk about it (as uninformed as she seems to be) to anyone willing to listen.
     
    T.Trian likes this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page