The Bechdel Test / Mako Mori

Discussion in 'Character Development' started by doggiedude, Jul 10, 2016.

  1. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    So, not in reference to your individual book, because, again, I don't think that's how the test is meant to be used and certainly not how I want to use it, but in feudal-style fantasy worlds in general...

    If we're changing reality so much that we have elves and dragons and wizards and whatever all running around where they never did, why is it so important that we stick to other aspects of real-world European history in order to be "realistic"? Alternatively, how sure are we that only men went to war? (See, for example, "We Have Always Fought" at http://aidanmoher.com/blog/featured-article/2013/05/we-have-always-fought-challenging-the-women-cattle-and-slaves-narrative-by-kameron-hurley/).

    Again, none of this is directed at an individual book. But I think they're the sorts of questions that we should be asking when a tool like the Bechdel test exposes something about our favourite genres.
     
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  2. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    But what if the story is not set in "real times"?

    What I mean, is, right, you've seen Prometheus?? the prequel to Alien, where it's theorised that there's this group of aliens who travel the galaxies seeding barren planets, which is where life comes from. Well, from what I know of the movie, the aliens doing the seeding are all male. So what if there was a book/film which told the story of these aliens? Where they came from, why they seek out barren planets, how they seed them, ans eventually, how or why they all died?

    No females. That certainly wouldn't pass the test.

    Talking of Mako Mori, there was another woman in Pacific Rim, one of the Russian Jaeger pilots was a woman. But I don;t know if she ever conversed with Mako in anything outside a professional role.
     
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  3. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    How far is it going to go before someone comes up with rules like:
    At least 30% of the characters must come from ethnic minorities.
    10% must be LGBT
    10% children of equal male/female
    all adults must be portrayed doing an equal amount of housework and office work ...

    When did the actual story get left behind?
     
  4. halisme

    halisme Contributor Contributor

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    It depends on the tone that the author is going for. As I said, if its high fantasy with elves, dragons such as lord of the rings, then yes, I am critical of it. However, if it is low fantasy, such as A Song of Ice, then I am less critical of it. The closer something wishes to be to the real world, or a certain time period of it, the more accepting I am. Bearing in mind though, that just because a piece of fiction contains an idea, that does not make it an inherent enforcement of that idea. Not to mention if a book contained people criticizing something without it being relevant to the people within, then it can come across as the author speaking instead of the characters. If there was a fantasy novel set in an egalitarian society, and someone started complaining about sexism that wasn't present within the setting, it might seem a little jarring.

    And yeah, in reference to fantasy, a lot of it is sexist for the same reason a lot of genres are sexist. It was written by men of their times and had to go through editors who were men of their times and then published by people who were men of their times. Tropes were laid out and its the authors choice if they wish to subvert, ignore, or use them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
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  5. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I think you're making the same leap someone made on the previous page.

    The test is descriptive, not prescriptive, but you're jumping ahead to a never-contemplated prescription, and making it as ridiculous as possible.

    That doesn't feel like a good-faith contribution to the discussion.
     
  6. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Well, while I'm far from thrilled with the portrayal of women in Song of Ice and Fire, I'm pretty sure all the novels would pass the Bechdel test. The books have women who DO THINGS, not just women who are accessories for the men who do things.

    I don't think the society being portrayed has to be egalitarian in order for the focus of the story to be egalitarian. Like, telling a story about slaves in the US south, in a way that's respectful of the slaves as human beings and also accurate about the conditions of their lives, doesn't mean that the story isn't realistically portraying the time period. It's the same history, just with a more modern, more respectful shift in perspective. And I don't think there has to be an overt "sexism is bad" statement in every story - I don't think anyone is arguing for that, are they?

    I don't think the Bechdel test is generally used to analyze historic publication patterns, or at least not exclusively historic patterns. It tends to be applied to current offerings, often with a historic perspective to note trends, as at: http://bechdeltest.com/statistics/
     
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  7. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    It's hypothetical.

    What was there before the Bechdel test? There was nothing in place to govern a woman's role in movies/fiction, then this came along as a way to (as someone else described on another forum) stop women from simply being 'props' in movies.

    So it's only reasonable to think, that with the way the world in changing, the Bechdale test will eventually have new rules added to it to discourage leaving out any particular group of people.

    And I use the word 'rules' there very loosely.
     
  8. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Do you really consider the idea that authors MIGHT want to consider sometimes including women in significant roles in their stories, to be so wildly extreme and off-the wall, that you compare it to wildly extreme and off-the-wall ideas like this?

    Women. Half the world. It's not such a very, horribly, awfully bad thing for them to appear in fiction? Nobody's suggesting quotas. People are suggesting an increased awareness, and people are saying that if an agency is interested in stories that have a strong female representation, that agency has that right.
     
  9. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Again, though, the test is descriptive, not prescriptive. So, yes, people may (and actually already have) expanded the test to see how characters of colour are represented in media. But that's still just descriptive.

    Are you suggesting that we should NOT look at our media and analyze how people from different groups are portrayed?

    There are no "rules" to the Bechdel test and it hasn't "stopped" anything from happening. It's just a way to report on what's happening. What people choose to do with the information is up to them.
     
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  10. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Is it possible that we might try to become aware of the representation of minorities and people of color in fiction and consider whether they are under-represented? Yes. Yes, we might. Is that such a horrible, awful, unthinkable thing? Should we rush to put our blinders on, before we start becoming aware of such things? After all, it's important to ensure that fiction NEVER addresses subjects like society, the human condition, human beings, any of that awful toxic stuff.

    Fiction is about men flying exploding helicopters. Let's focus on the priorities here!!!!
     
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  11. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I know that. What I'm saying, as base level, is what is fundamentally wrong with a story that only has one female role, or no female roles.

    The Thing, had no female roles but is listed with a score of 8.2/10 on IMDb

    The test, in my opinion is flawed.
     
  12. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Are you not able to understand that the test is not a single-point judge of quality? Have you been reading anything that any of us have said?
     
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  13. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I'm not suggesting that at all. What I'm suggesting, is for the story to be told. And if it does not include women, or aliens, or ethnic minorities, or whatever, then don't include them for the sake of being inclusive.
     
  14. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    Is it possible that you're basing your understanding of the test on something that's been written somewhere else, on this other forum you mentioned? Because no one here is saying the things you seem to think people are saying...
     
  15. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    And has anyone whatsoever argued anything different?
     
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  16. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    It has been used as a single point judge to indicate why certain movies flopped.
     
  17. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    So you're having a whole different conversation than the rest of us, I guess?
     
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  18. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    Where?
     
  19. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    I don't think we can realistically discuss everything that's been said about the Bechdel test in any forum any time.

    Is there anything that's been said in THIS forum at THIS time that you are concerned about?
     
  20. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Only the agents who use the formula to accept or decline a manuscript.

    I'm not arguing the point with any person in particular, I simply stating my opinion which is what I thought this forum was for. There are no right and wrong answers, just opinions.
     
  21. Tenderiser

    Tenderiser Not a man or BayView

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    A side character can be (should be) meaningful though. Meaningful doesn't mean in meaningful employment, just important to the story.
     
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  22. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    Like what? I'm stating my opinion. Which is this = I don't agree with the test, I don't see how it would work and I don't understand how an agent can dismiss a work simply because it only contains one female role who doesn't get to talk to another female.
     
  23. cutecat22

    cutecat22 The Strange One Contributor

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    I was reading about it on Wiki, where the OP had also bee reading about it.
     
  24. ChickenFreak

    ChickenFreak Contributor Contributor

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    So would you argue that if an agent only represents science fiction, that means that soon there will be rules that all books MUST include science fiction elements?

    Or would that mean that that agency has a particular focus, which is their right, whereas a focus on stories with a strong female representation is not an agency's right?
     
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  25. BayView

    BayView Huh. Interesting. Contributor

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    There are agents who only represent science fiction. If I pitch a mystery novel to them and they reject it, it's not a sign that science fiction is taking over the world and there's nowhere left for mystery novels and I'm being silenced and the agent is discriminatory and everything's going to hell!

    It just means that agent has specific interests. That's all.

    ETA: Sweet Jesus, @ChickenFreak, could you either get out of my brain or TYPE SLOWER?!? You're beating me to the punch on EVERY. SINGLE. REPLY.

    (And it's kinda creepy that we both came up with the scifi-only agent...)
     

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