1. RileyEW

    RileyEW New Member

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    How to redeem a really bad character

    Discussion in 'Character Development' started by RileyEW, Apr 26, 2020.

    So, I have this character, and in a previous story she was in, she was very two-faced, manipulative, and did a lot of bad things (Including causing many many deaths, and playing around with a guys heart, and playing him). I want to develop her character and make her somewhat of a better person (not a good person by any means, but better), and I don't want to make it seem like I'm doing the "Trauma excuses actions" thing, cause it doesn't. It has a factor in them, but she made her own choices and I want to be able to express that somehow. The other problem is that she has limited time in the story and might get killed off. I don't want her to make immediate progress, but I want her to make a little bit of progress. I hope I explained that well enough, and appreciate any advice!
     
  2. Malisky

    Malisky Malkatorean Contributor

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    Perhaps an inciting incident that caused a twist in her philosophy would be enough. Let me explain. She has reasons to be the way she is, right? What are the reasons? Except if she's a psycho that just feels good by killing and torturing people, but these kind of characters, without any explanation upon how they got to be the way they are, end up two dimensional and somewhat fake. It doesn't have to be a melodramatic trauma but it surely would have to do with something that happened in the past, which made her pick the dark side, because that's what she thinks is right either for her, or for the world, or both.

    So, long story short, there has to be an incident in the "now" that somehow correlates to her past giving her a new perspective on things. I don't know anything about your story other than what you shared so I can't speculate the nature of the inciting incident. Perhaps something that has to do with the guy she played?
     
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  3. Gladiolus83

    Gladiolus83 Contributor Contributor

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    I have an eerily similar character of my own. Everything you described about her made me think wait this is just like my Huanglong. One thing that differ though is that I might be doing the "Trauma excuses actions" thing. So if you don’t mind I’ll stick around and see if the advice you get might also help me.

    Now, about redeeming qualities… One thing I’m considering about my aforementioned Huanglong is that he actually does develop genuine feelings for the guy he is manipulating. He is just more set on achieving his goals and pushes his feelings aside because he “can’t allow one weakness to get in the way.” So maybe your character can have something like that too?
     
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  4. RileyEW

    RileyEW New Member

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    Yeah, Thank you so much! I'll to to brainstorm
     
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  5. RileyEW

    RileyEW New Member

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    That's really neat! That was a plan I had, that when she was playing him she started to actually develop feelings for him, but she tried to ignore them and stuff because she was always taught that emotions like that make you weak
     
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  6. Yaldabaoth

    Yaldabaoth Member

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    Not knowing the context I'd say it's important for the character to express penitence in both dialogue and inner thoughts. A character's desire to change has to feel genuine for the audience to really accept it.

    I would say as a motivating factor someone unintentionally getting hurt or killed (depending on the nature of your story) either directly or indirectly as a result of your character's actions would be a good motivator for change.
     
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  7. Partridge

    Partridge Senior Member

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    Real change has to come from within, and it has to come from the heart. Psychology tells us that people change when they learn some "truth" about themselves or their environment. Why did your character act so badly? What beliefs did she have about herself and her surroundings to drive her to behave in such a way? Actions are the results of certain beliefs, at the end of the day.

    To give you an example, I used to be quite hostile and nasty to the outside world: I used to think that people hated me, had something against me and wanted me to fail. I actually believed that. When I pulled these beliefs out by their roots and examined them, I discovered that it was not rational. What I believed changed and I started to be a little bit nicer in the way that I engaged with the outside world.

    A bit deep for 9:30 am, sorry.
     
  8. Xoic

    Xoic Prognosticator of Arcana Ridiculosum Contributor Blogerator

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    You gotta drag 'em through hell in order to redeem them. There's a great deal of wisdom in those old sayings like "If you want to get to Heaven you've got to go through Hell." It's a balance thing, you can't have the good without experiencing its opposite.

    I think a person, in order to change significantly, needs to be broken down to the core, to have all the top layers stripped away, and that only happens when they experience a lot of extremely negative emotion. Think about the 7 stages of acceptance leading up to death, this is the way people react when they need to face something they really don't want to, especially if their life has been built on ignoring things they don't want to acknowledge. And symbolically, a person changing from evil to good is dying as who they were in order to become someone new.

    One thing I'v learned is that real, deep change only comes through a lot of negative emotion. Rage, giving way to sorrow and grief, and then acceptance that change is necessary.

    I don't think you can just say it happened between 2 books. Not if you want the readers to really believe in it. It might not need to be in an entire novel with the character as the MC, but otherwise I can't say offhand how to achieve it believably.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2020
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  9. Homer Potvin

    Homer Potvin A tombstone hand and a graveyard mind Staff Supporter Contributor

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    Classic answer is that the path to redemption begins with a selfless act... often of smaller proportion to the evil act that preceded it.
     
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  10. Lifeline

    Lifeline South. Supporter Contributor

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    Could happen through interaction of the guy with the MC. Readers got to see the change, and that means the person needs to be there to be seen.
     
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  11. TheOtherPromise

    TheOtherPromise Senior Member

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    I think giving her a positive influence that encourages her to be better (in some way, doesn't have to be blatant), is a good place to start. She'll need a catalyst to promote the change, after all.

    Now this positive influence could be someone she grows to care about, or it could also be someone she's envious of.

    You can also have her realize that her behavior is not helping her achieve her goals, that could promote her to have a change in strategy.
     
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  12. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    Maybe a change of heart or mind. I've seen children be used quite a bit in redemption story lines. Either the antagonist gets pregnant or somehow discovers a child. It's a personal thing but for me there are some things that can't be redeemed. The person needs, in my opinion, to be punished/pay for their crimes not just get away with them and prove they are worthy of forgiveness and are committed to their change in lifestyle. They are getting a second chance in my eyes but the people they killed and their loved ones aren't getting a second chance (these are normally innocent people). And I think it's better when the change isn't sudden, but very gradual. They have to relapse and try again. Make it about the struggle to change your thinking patterns. So if your bad guy was to be betrayed, her old self would have killed the betrayer no matter how much he/she begged or if they had a good reason. Maybe her development could be planning on killing this person, but chooses not to. Also ensure her change feels write. It adds to the plot and the overall story, not just because you want the character to turn good just because.

    Good for you in not using a sob story. That is becoming a big thing in redeeming villains. This person should get forgiveness because they were exposed to bingo at 5 years old - doesn't excuse all the suffering they causes. Many people have rough lives and every one reacts to things differently but committing your own crimes shouldn't get you off the hook completely.
     
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  13. keysersoze

    keysersoze Senior Member

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    I am working on a redemption plot as well and I am trying to avoid guilt tripping the guy.

    Your character must be a very headstrong person. I like writing headstrong characters. Now she does her thing, which is mean and selfish etc etc. All that is fun for her. You do not want to lose that. That would be like losing the essence of the character. But something quirky happens to her. It might as well be just a thought. She is in supreme control of all things in her life, around her. An idea crosses somehow, what if I allow something to perturb my heart? What if I allow myself to actually care about something outside myself? It is still only a fancy, not a determination or resolve. The more she tries it, the more it becomes enchanting - something in the world that is free of her manipulation and control. She can destroy its freedom anytime. But just for a little longer she lets it be. In a way, she is willingly toying with her own identity. It can be a lover (thought that might be a cliche), it might be a protege, it might be a child, it might be a tiny philanthropic idea. Some life that depends on her and that in turn vitalizes her like nothing ever has. And she is enchanted by it. Then she want to protect it. She can grow on this experiment.

    Does this make sense?

    My character is drunk on success and power he has. He has manipulated, cheated, and walked over many to reach where he is at. His conscious desire is one last thing. His vanity demands it of him. As the script (I am writing a film) moves along and he inches towards the last bit of success he wants, he finds his success does not have all the meat he wants to taste. He realizes he is capable of greater influence than any of his personal (selfish) needs require. In the end he throws away all his success for a bigger dream.
     
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  14. peachalulu

    peachalulu Member Reviewer Contributor

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    In soaps - bad characters didn't actually change their stripes but they realized (or maybe the writer's realized) in order for them to be around people they'd have to do something that wasn't self serving. I remember in 90210 Valerie helped Dylan get his money back when it was stolen and that gained her a foothold back into the group. Sydney did almost the same thing in Melrose Place attempting to get Jane's money back after it was stolen. Redemption usually costs the bad person some sort of risk factor to show they're 'better' by performing an action that will a. cost them something, b. is the opposite of what they've done in the past, c. it stems from not just selfish needs but a genuine urge to make good.
     
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  15. Fiender_

    Fiender_ Active Member

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    Redemption can be very difficult. You say she has caused many deaths (and played with someone's heart which... I'm sorry, those things are not on the same scale ;P ). Did she intentionally lead innocent people to their deaths? If so... there is no "redemption" for her, imo. You can have her express some regret or growth about what she's done, but the only way she could possibly "tip the scales" back in her favor is self-sacrifice, i.e., this lady needs to die saving someone else. Preferably many someone else's.

    That's really all I can say without having more context.
     
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  16. RileyEW

    RileyEW New Member

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    I guess redeem isn’t really the right word, but I want to give her a believable character arc where she gets better. My character is two faced, manipulative, And a liar before she gets any character development. She also tries to not show her emotions unless she’s putting up her innocent, sweet facade. This is partly because of her childhood, but that’s not really an excuse. She was basically raised in the mafia, as the leaders kid, and was taught and told to do bad things since she was little. So anyways, I want to give her a character where the other characters help her through a character arc, to get better. But I feel like it’ll be difficult seeing as she’s manipulated and hurt so many people before this point and I’m not sure how to go about it. Hopefully that makes sense, I’m sorry if it doesn’t. I’m happy to give more information if needed!
     
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  17. Kalisto

    Kalisto Senior Member

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    Well, redemption is not a complete erasing of a person's past. It's simply a turn to another direction. So, no, you'll never fully "redeem" the character in the eyes of the reader. No single action can fully redeem a character after a lifetime of lies and deceit. However, you can convinced the reader that your character has changed and things will be different from then on. It can start with her doing one small act. Doesn't have to be big. Then followed by a feeling of surprise that she did that. Then followed by another good act. Then followed by a sense of remorse of all the wrong she did. Then a determination and struggle to break old habits. To finally the conclusion involving an open definance to all the wrong she had done. And this will lead the reader to believe that, though her past is still her past, she is in the right direction.
     
  18. Dogberry's Watch

    Dogberry's Watch Contributor Contributor Contest Winner 2022 Contest Winner 2023

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    I guess my first question is why does she need to be redeemed or "better" as you said? I feel like it could be a stronger story if she's just bad the whole way through despite the group's best efforts. Emotional detachment can be useful in stressful situations, or so I am told.

    If you're making her story the main one, then ignore the question I asked. Being a mafia kid doesn't excuse being bad, in my opinion. Because you use the word facade, it's clear she knows she's doing things that hurt people. So I guess my question is then why does she feel like changing? What's the catalyst there? Could be a small act, like the person above me said. It could also be pretty life altering, like a lie she tells gets someone she really actually cares about killed.

    I don't know if this helps, but I hope it does.
     
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  19. Rzero

    Rzero Reluctant voice of his generation Contributor

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    The easiest way to start a redemptive arc is for the character to perform a heinous act and seriously regret it. It would have to be the worst thing she's ever done in terms of how it affected other people. When she has a horrible, guilty reaction, she can start to reevaluate the tendencies that brought her to this point and want to change them. She doesn't have to become an angel afterword, but guilt can go a long way toward changing behavior and redeeming a character in the eyes of the reader.
     
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  20. Davi Mai

    Davi Mai Banned

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    I'm not a big fan of redemption - its a little predictable, but also unrealistic at the same time. I reckon the bad guys can stay bad :) But...you could make the character the lesser of two evils. Have her draw a line in the sand over something. ie. Show the reader that yes, she's bad, but she still has morals/humanity/standards. She still has a line she won't cross. It's amazing how forgiving we are when we see that demonstrated, I think? I'm trying to think of an example... Hmm... maybe...a paid assassin that refuses to take contracts that involve women or children? Before that rule of theirs was revealed to us, we might think of them as a complete bastard, going around murdering people for money. But now that we learn they dont kill women and children, we think "Aw....that's good of them!" :) In actual fact, they are still a murderous bastard...but now they have a redeeming quality. You know? :)
     
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  21. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Is this character your Point-Of-View character? If so, the job of making them redeemable is fairly simple. Just let the reader in on the motivation for what these characters do. Even if what they 'do' is seen as 'bad' by others ...let us in on the reason why they do these things. What are the thought processes and emotions that leads them to do these things? Use your POV character to the fullest extent you can. Let us in on what's going on in their heads. If they do wrong things for the 'right' reasons, we'll see the potential for redemption.

    If the character isn't your POV character, it gets interesting. I have just finished reading an excellent, multilayered and surprising novel by the (for me, unsurpassed) Western genre writer Elmer Kelton. The book is called The Day the Cowboys Quit.

    There is an enigmatic 'bad guy' character who enters the story a bit late on, and we find him chilling. Our POV character, Hitch, is actually scared of this guy because he has a reputation for ruthlessness, and because his very presence is threatening, although he says very little. This guy has been hired as an enforcer by a group of large ranchers who are concerned their cattle might be getting stolen. This enigmatic bad guy collects a group of vigilantes who catch and hang a cattle thief—who happens to be a good friend of Hitch. Hitch hears about this vigilante raid just before it happens, and rushes to try to save the situation. He gets there just too late, to find his friend has just been hung, and the vigilantes are still there. Hitch is aware that his friend was guilty of stealing cattle, but he confronts the men who hung him illegally, without a trial—including the enigmatic bad guy—and drives them all off his friend's property at gunpoint. He then buries his friend on the property.

    A few days later, he revisits the grave, only to find that it's been trampled upon by cattle, and the wooden headstone he fashioned at the time of burial has been broken. He sets to work building a fence around the grave, so the cattle won't trample over it again. As he works on the fence, the enigmatic bad guy turns up, on his own—scaring the shit out of Hitch, who assumes he's come back to get some sort of revenge. Without much ado, the bad guy dismounts, and helps Hitch to finish building the fence. We are all astonished, along with Hitch. The bad guy makes small talk during the job, but offers no reason for his actions, and makes no apology for hanging the thief in the first place. When the fence is completed, he gets back on his horse and rides away, leaving Hitch totally baffled. Guess what? We never do learn what the bad guy's motivation was! We see him a few more times, not doing much. But we are intrigued. And it seems as if the guy might have some redeeming qualities. But we'll never know.

    The moral here, for the writer? Surprise us. Have the bad character do something nobody expects. It doesn't have to be something cheesy, like feeding a kitten. It can be something that's just out of character—like helping somebody build a fence around the grave of a guy he's killed. We don't need to know why. In fact, it might be really intriguing to never tell us. Let your POV character be surprised, and maybe change his/her view.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
  22. cosmic lights

    cosmic lights Contributor Contributor

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    I've noticed lately that there seems to be a new rage for redeeming a villain or making an antagonist see the error of their ways. Not quite sure why this seems to be a thing lately but are you sure it's the strongest solution for your story?

    Redeeming characters is a hard one and I think actions speak louder than words and it's important for the change to feel organic. It can be very hard to change a lifetimes worth of habit. I watched a very old movie the other day, and it had an interested character as the lead. His "ghosts" were hinted at, but never delved into. He'd grown up in a very bleak house, his mother had run away and left them, his father was a stern man, his dream career had been ruined due to him never being quite good enough and a lack of help from anyone else. These things were simply hinted at. He was very cynical, demanding and abrupt but there was a kindness there which he showed to only one person. He was abusive but not intentionally. He was controlling and possessive, not because he was cruel, but because he had such a negative view on the world that he saw everything and everyone as a threat. A friend would betray you in your hour of need, a dream would be shattered, a love (even towards a pet) would eventually break your heart, and everyone was out for themselves. This belief drove him to isolate himself and attempt to do the same to his daughter. He wasn't controlling out of just being mean, he was controlling out of love and fear. He didn't show her any love or affection. But he did show her devotion. He made her dream career happen for her at the sacrifice of many of his own things. He showed his love by sheltering her and giving her everything she wanted so long as it was 'safe' in his mind.

    I think that's the complexity you need to add. He was neither a wonderful. kind man nor was he nothing more than a cruel bully. He was just complicated. Someone's background is no excuse, you're right, but it can and does affect you. You can avoid it feeling like an excuse.
     
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  23. TheOtherPromise

    TheOtherPromise Senior Member

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    While I love redemption arcs, I'm hesitant about this one. Because if her primary negative traits are that she is manipulative and a liar, then any decent thing she does will be untrustworthy.

    I feel like it's important to show that the character is capable of respecting and valuing someone besides themselves before they even start on their redemption arc. If this is shown, then introducing a positive role model for the character who can inspire them to redeem themself, or a change in perspective that makes them question what they've been doing up to this point, works. But if they consistently show a complete disregard to the well-being and opinion of others, then it doesn't make sense for them to suddenly change their mind.

    But maybe that's just my bias, my favorite redemption arcs are always with characters who are generally honest and loyal, just ones who place that loyalty where it does not belong.
     
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  24. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Think about why people manipulate and lie. Do they manipulate because they are afraid to be upfront, for fear they'll always be refused or even attacked? Do they lie because they fear an unjust punishment?

    Manipulation and lying are simply ways of getting what the character wants, or avoiding trouble. However, it's WHAT they want, and what kind of trouble they are trying to avoid, that will make them redeemable or not.

    If they are manipulating a helpless old man to get him to sign over his money to them, or lying to get an innocent person jailed instead of themselves ...then their motivation is probably bad and they're not really redeemable.

    Dig into motivation.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
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  25. deadrats

    deadrats Contributor Contributor

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    I've been in similar sorts of situations. I don't think you want your character to change completely, but I understand that you want her to change in some ways and have redeeming qualities.

    Something I was told was to give my character a puppy. Not literally a puppy, but the idea is to bring in some sort of outside influence that will show a different side of your character. It offers a sliver of hope that your character could change. Who doesn't love a cute puppy? And before you or anyone else says their character doesn't like animals, I hope you get the idea behind it.
     

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