The God Question

All well, but stating that something is outside logic in an argument is a pretty sure-fire way to end it before it even starts. It's sort of like choosing 'volcano' in rock-paper-scissors; there's no satisfiable answer from either side. That being said, if god does exist I'm confident he'd be the maximum expression of logic and reason.

Another question, how do people commonly respond to the 'free-will' paradox? The one that states that if god knows everything, past, present and future, how do we have free will? Because I've tried asking it and all I got was (another) weird look.

 

Im a believer in the whole we are all energy (being released and repalced back to the earth) kind of god thing... which for me makes the whole "we are made from the image of god" or whatever sense more to me.

 

Free will doesn't preclude God knowing everything. If you operate under the belief that God knows all, he simply knows what choices we will make. That doesn't keep us from making decisions or thinking for ourselves. Some people see free will as the greatest gift Ggd gave us. It is what separates us from animals. We don't act on simple instinct. We can think and reason and want. It is also the basis of "original sin." It is what allows us to hurt others, be selfish, sin. God may know that we are going to sin, but it is still our choice to do so. It is also our choice to follow the rules and be good little followers.

 

If god does know what choice we are going to make, how is it free will? If the future is already known then we have no choice in the matter, it's already predetermined.

 

Enter quantum physics - free will's best friend.

 

I can know what my husband is going to order for dinner. I can know what my mom is going to be watching on tv when I drop by later. That doesn't mean they aren't making the choices.

 

Oh, god, please no. I can grasp some basic quantum physics concepts but it's just too random for me. And that double-slit experiment! Exactly how are we supposed to observe some particles if contact with photons affect their behaviour?! CRAZY, I TELL YOU, CRAZY (hehe).

Not with absolute certainty. Maybe when your husband tries to order pizza for dinner, he implodes. Maybe I just had an aneurysm and we're not having this discussion, you do not exist. Maybe your mother just found a sudden interest in cartoon-network. All of this is unlikely, but the possibility is there and will never go away... But knowing the future with absolute certainty, and this is what omniscient means, means there are no other possibilities other than the predetermined path. I hope I didn't tangle myself >.>.

 

I find it amusing so many people presume to know anything about something which is so intrinsically unknowable...

There is nothing of this earthly world upon which you can base an assertion that God either does or does not exist. The question, by its very nature, is unanswerable.

 

You are right. From an objective point of view, agnosticism is the only bet. But discussing is something I rarely do (but enjoy immensely) so I try to take advantage of the moment :3.

 

It's wholly illogical to apply the logic of our finite based existence to something that, should it exist and be the creator of that existence, must exist outside of it. Our logic cannot be applied to God, should he exist. Logic is driven by our preceptions and reasoning of reality. If god is real and the creator of that reality he must exist outside of it, and therefore that logic cannot apply to him... if that makes sense XD.

Free will and predetermination are complicated things. I once heard someone make the argument that it's a never ending circle, one proving the other, but I can never seem to remember exactly how he went about it.

As for god, it make sense to assume that not only would he know what we will do, but everything else we could do. For us, time is viewed through our eyes as linear, god existing outside of our reality would not be bound by that and could possibly see everything happening at once, every possible effect, ever possible choice, and every possible outcome. He can know the path we will take but that doesn't mean we don't choose to take it. Knowing the outcome does not negate the chances of something happening or not happening.

 

That's more like it .

Okay, a thought experiment. I'm omniscient. I know everything that can, could, will ever happen. I flip a coin. I know that in the reality I'm in right now, my coin will land on eagle. If it does, there was no need to flip the coin in the first place (but I chose to anyway, because I'm omnipotent and I can do whatever I want), if it doesn't then I'm not omniscient (I knew what could have happened, but I didn't know what would happen).

I hope I'm making sense, because if I don't ,oh, boy will I look stupid.

 

I as was reading through this, I was about to make a statement similar to yours. Thanks for doing it for me. I agree with this.

 

That would be my response. (What's bolded).

 

God might know what we are going to choose with certainty. But we still choose. We don't know the outcome.

 

And there is joy of living; we may not have free will but in practicality it would be the same as if we did. =)

 

Even Einstein stated that if there are two forces for which there is absolutely no way to tell one from the other, then they are the same. Or something like that...

 

Sheesh, it's really tough to discuss about this without bringing in philosophy, and we all know the best philosophies contradict themselves.

Now, according to the theory dubbed by many as the theory of infinity (aka there are no absolutes, and yes it is a contradiction), we can say that God is infinite since, according to many, God is omniscient. In other words, God can see that which led to a choice, the choice, the result, and all immediate and long term effects that may lead to other choices, and so on. So, if God can see all, then it is also true that God cannot see all for all is not finite.

There, now that arguing about how omnipotent/omniscient God is will only draw a circle, lets move on to another topic. Monotheist vs. Polytheist perhaps?

 

Could someone please bring back quantum physics? My head hurts...

Also, any thought on why monotheistic religions are more popular?

 

I believe monotheistic religions are more popular because of many reasons.

-It's more believable than a bunch of different "people" deciding our fate.
-It reminds people of Greco-Roman religions and other primitive religions.
-People prefer one god who is above all.

 

Maybe because there are fewer gods to keep up with?

But really, we all know that the biggest monotheist religion is Christianity. Now, if we think to the origin of Christianity, we can see how it became so popular. Christianity was made really popular around the Roman time then spread through trade and conquerings and then the infamous Crusades. Then explorers and pilgrims discover N. America and settled there. So that covers N. America and Europe. Lets not forget the European's era of conquering and slave trades and such. The Europeans had settlements all over the world and took over many countries. Well I'll stop here since everyone can figure out the rest.

 

Being not of a mind to argue, I shall respond to the Original Post.

I am agnostic. I was atheist for a time, but then I realized that I do believe in some higher entity, but I have yet to find a religion that shares my interpretation. I also find so many "fueding" religions which I find sad because they argue over GOD without realizing they're all discussing the same GOD. My mother exposed me to every religion she could by sending me off to as many religiously diverse freinds' churches, mosques, temples, and what have yous as she could.

But agnostic I am, and have a feeling I shall stay. I do, however, find it quite interesting to study religion not only through unbiased channels, but through those whom practice the various religions and even a cult here and there.

For me, it comes down to this:

We all want to be right. And, when we're wrong, it's better to be wrong and among many.

But, I have many more years to learn.

 

Even in religions of multiple gods, usually only the worship of one god is practiced by a certain group. The guys in the west may worship Bob but on the east side they worship Joe. Now both the east and west recognize the existence of bob and joe but each side only worships on. Most polytheistic religions are bound to the regional god or the patron deity of of city or place but were also tied by similar cultures that would acknowledge the existence of other gods but only worship one. Often in the ancient world were I a carpenter, I'd only worship the patron god of carpenters as he's the guy I want to please.

Monothism finds it's popularity in it's more strict moral overtones. Most poly religions don't have a specific moral code or ethical law that the followers of the religion abide by (save for honor the gods and they will honor you). The mono religions often have strict codes of ethics and behavior and often include some form of great reward for abiding by them.

People want to be good, and mono religions derive popularity from their rewarding of that good. It can get more complicated than that but that's my general (really general) way of looking at it.

 

That's just one premise of one argument you're refuting

there's literally a dozen rebuttals I could make to this

then again

it is philosophy

haha.

That's probably why I'm suggesting people who are searching for God to have a look into philosophy, the viewpoints, at times, seem endless, lol.

 

for me, i am a christian. and because i have experienced the love of God personally before, more than once, i believe there is a God.

hmm, in every religion there are black sheeps who don't keep to the rules of the faith, and sometimes it will end up giving people the impression that religion X is a bad religion or something.

i don't know much about other religion, so i will say mine. for me, christianity is a faith based on love. everything is about love. and God gives us free will too, that is why He allows people to reject Him (no offence to those who don't believe in God). i cannot really explain why there are so much suffering, except that it is the result of the misuse of freewill on some people. as for those suffering, i have always believed that if they turn to God they can find a way out.

what i say may make me sound like a hypocrite though, because i have never experienced the cruel sufferings of life. but this is what i personally think.

another thing is people often take God as their genie, instead of their King.

hope this does not offend any person here...

 

Maybe suffering wills people to give, to show love.