The God Question

Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by Thagryn-Sylrand, Nov 4, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. lordofhats

    lordofhats New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    2,022
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    The Hat Cave
    In the words of some chinese guy who's name I don't remember: "The mountain is rigid because you need stepping stones to reach the top."

    A better example: "Why do we fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves back up."

    Suffering strengthens the spirit. If there were no trials life from a Christian sense is meaningless. If it just flew by without so much as a bump on the road how are you ever challenged to rise above what you are now? Suffering forces us to adapt, and it is our choices in how we handle our own human suffering that determines the worth of our lives.
     
  2. RIPPA MATE

    RIPPA MATE New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Australia
    batman, now there's a religion. ;)
     
  3. Nilfiry

    Nilfiry Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    Messages:
    708
    Likes Received:
    120
    Location:
    Eternal Stream
    Maybe I should look more into polytheist religions because I believe that's not a very accurate way of putting it. It is rather more like the people worship every god, but goes to a specific god(dess) when they need something specific. It's like in Buddhism where there's a god of love and god of age, and god of beauty, and when people want something of those gods, they go to a specific one, but all the main gods are present in their temples.
     
  4. Ennui

    Ennui New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2008
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Wales
    Everyone should reputedly be retrospective in visualizing of God,and if He does or does not exist,then there must be a justified reason.I have a justified and short reason,is that God is a figurative but loftily-touted and revered person in all minds,and this is actually an innate thing in everyone.For,when you are young,you inevitably are inquisitive,and,reputedly went churches with your parents,acquaintances by obligation or for a not intensely acute belief of God.When you went to a church,I do not know whether your parents might baptized you or not,if yes,this perception might be irrevocable.

    Nevertheless,God is not what we must have faith but solely His philosophy.
     
  5. Frost

    Frost Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2006
    Messages:
    668
    Likes Received:
    23
    Location:
    Australia
    That's quite an interesting belief, do you mind if I ask why you believe there'd be a reward for good living but no punishment for bad? What happens to those who dont go to heaven?

    Me personally, well I struggle with the whole ideal of basically everything. I struggle on the thought of (taking the fractal geometry example earlier) that in random spontaneity, the world formed and, conveniently, mathematical equations happened to exist that allowed such a phenomenon - but wait - that we were then lucky enough to go ahead and discover this. It seems like such a far fetched bet that the idea of God in comparison with it seems equally far fetched... Which, naturally leads to my mind going in to a sort of melt down.

    So, recently I've decided Ill take comfort in companionship. In my family, in my friends, in my girlfriend, in my dog, in music. In things that I know at least exist in a shallow form, that's comforting enough for the time being. As of right now, I have no need for deeper satisfaction. People are forever telling us about need and want - do you need that spring 08 slim fit tee by insight, or do you just want it because its a fantastic top?

    I realise this all makes me sound pretty shallow, and I guess, to an extent that I am. But I just think that things are as they are. What are we going to do if we know definitively about the existence of a deity or lack there of? There's going to be sweet **** all we can do about it either way, a few peoples nose will be put out of joint, and a whole demographic of some description gets to say 'told ya so'. But does it really matter? Shouldn't we focus more on things like global warming and whether or not it exists, and what we can do about it? Or on global financial crisis, and since we know well and truly that's no myth, what we can do about that?

    I guess you could call it realism. Which would be a fair description, but thats just me.
     
  6. lordofhats

    lordofhats New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    2,022
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    The Hat Cave
    It varies. I'm primarily more focused on the history of the western world, where the patron deity practice is most common. I know Hinduism is different from the norm for a poly based religion because it actually does have a code of ethics while most western poly's don't. I know that in Egypt, Greece, Mesopotamia, and some of the "Barbarian" tribes practice Patron worship. But I also know that the Germanians and the Saxons practiced a worship of multiple gods all at the same time based on their need.

    In the ancient world (the west and middle east anyway) a great many people viewed war as a battle between the patron gods of two cities, and the city that won had the stronger god.

    Most poly religions started as I described but as cultures grew and absorbed other smaller cultures they all absorbed that cultures deities and religions (notice how the gods and goddesses of Greece and Rome are heavily used in Christian symbolism to articulate their message to those who had once followed those religions, and there are quite a few Celt and Norse influences too). Most likely there was a time where the god now known as Zeus was specific to particular city who worshipped him alone, and as time wnet on he was abosrbed or absorbed others into his tales until the Pantheon was built. After that it varies from one culture to the next but many would practice the worship of one or two patron deities and acknowledge and honor the existence of the rest.

    I only speak from what I learned in Western Civilizations class though. I don't know every single poly religion there is and I won't pretend I do. I just know the cultural trend that the West had prior to Christianity coming in.

    All hail batman!

    [​IMG]
     
  7. tehuti88

    tehuti88 New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Michigan
    Now this is why I'm perplexed by why anyone even bothers with religious threads. Somebody merely asks what others' beliefs are, then instead of just sharing people's beliefs, it always turns into a big debate about philosophy/theology/physics/semantics/bla bla bla bla whatever. *brain glazes over & loses interest*

    Whatever happened to just asking a question, and getting a simple answer? Even if the answer itself isn't simple, I never understand why sharing one's beliefs always turns into threads like this. There should be a rule in the next such thread that states, "Give your opinion, then let others do the same, and no picking apart/debating what everyone else believes. Just share and move on." Isn't all this other debating wandering off the original topic anyway?

    Debate is a good thing, but sometimes it's just nice to answer the question and move on.

    Which I'll be doing now. Since my post isn't an argument of physics or a refutation of theology or whateverblabla I doubt it'll even be noticed.
     
  8. Silver Random

    Silver Random New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2008
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Scotland
    What's wrong with that kind of discussion? Maybe some people enjoy talking about philosophy, or maybe they just want to expose themselves to other viewpoints, or maybe they just enjoy a freindly debate over anything or nothing, where they can hone their debating. Also, people with different view points going into more detail on their views (which is what should happen in a good debate) will give the original question a fuller answer than a multitude of individual unexpanded statements.

    Also if not that, some people's natural response is to argue with or challenge statements that they disagree with that either arent backed up or are backed up with reasons they think are flawed. On a writing thread, if someone asks "What do you think is the best way to start a piece of writing?" and someone says "It's always best to open with "once upon a time""... they are answering the question in the post, but i am guessing that while some people might just leave it, at least some one will call them on it.
     
  9. Acglaphotis

    Acglaphotis New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2008
    Messages:
    912
    Likes Received:
    3
    I agree with Silver Random. There is nothing wrong about a polite debate.
     
  10. Kratos

    Kratos New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    Messages:
    787
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Maryland, United States
    Heaven isn't a place to reward good living. It's a place for those who believe in God. You could be a mass murderer and change and believe in God and go to heaven. I'm still not sure, that belief was just an idea. I'm just questioning whether a loving God would send people to an enternal damnation. Maybe those in hell get a chance to go to heaven, like only heaven and a sort of purgatory.

    I really don't know. Just speculation.
     
  11. tarnished

    tarnished Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Boston
    My Personal Beliefs:

    I do not believe in god. I think the idea that there is someone higher than me and that has any power over my life at all is to far-fretched. Ive read portions of the bible, and it just rings so exaggerated that I just had no interest. I think that everyone controls their lives, and when you die you die. You don't go anywhere, its just eternal darkness, and you're not even aware of it. I think its sort of a bliss, in a way. I also believe that religon is great. It gives people faith and hope through terrible times, and I could never fault anyone for it. Either way is fine with me. I also really like buddhism. Certain aspects of it, atleast.
     
  12. Nilfiry

    Nilfiry Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    Messages:
    708
    Likes Received:
    120
    Location:
    Eternal Stream
    The idea saying God loves you, yet he allows you to be condemned to hell makes me wonder that God is actually an impartial judge rather than a savior.
     
  13. Acglaphotis

    Acglaphotis New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2008
    Messages:
    912
    Likes Received:
    3
    The idea of a god who will eternally damn you in a place of infinite suffering for not acknowledging him is not, without any offence really, the kind of god I'd want to believe in. I'd prefer a benevolent father who loves all of his creations :/, but it's not about what I want to believe, is it now?
     
  14. tarnished

    tarnished Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    May 16, 2008
    Messages:
    616
    Likes Received:
    16
    Location:
    Boston
    I agree. I also think that my faith shouldn't be fear-based, in the sense that I'll be sent to hell if I don't worship him.
     
  15. ning

    ning New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    hmm it seems like the religion you are talking about is christianity here? forgive my ignorance if there are other religions with the same belief.

    allow me to explain these things from the viewpoint of a christian. i hope i don't sound like i am preaching.

    well, like Kratos said, heaven is a place for people who believe in God. in the christian faith, everybody is a sinner. and because we all sin, we need to pay for our sins (well in the human world if you commit a crime you do have to be punished right?). because heaven is a holy place, sinners cannot go there (well in the same way criminals are not allowed to roam freely in a lawful society right?). so Christ died for our sins and paid the debt for us, so our sins are no longer counted against us, and we can go to heaven. but, if we reject Christ and do not allow Him to take away our debt, we will not be able to enter heaven, and thus be sent to hell. hell is a place where we are separated from God. no offence to the others, but from our viewpoint it is people who rejected God and thus cannot enter heaven.

    as for the mass murderer, of course if he believed and truly repent, he will go to heaven. but it doesnt mean he will go away scot-free in the human world. like the criminals who got crucifed together with Christ, one of them repented and believed, but he still died. he did go to heaven after that though. you will need to believe that when you died, God will be able to resurrect you, and having your sins taken away, you can enter heaven. you need to truly repent of your sins on earth when you are living though...

    @Nilfiry
    well God is certainly impartial. but He is a savior because He allows a way for us to be saved. we can go to heaven, the choice is up to us whether we allow our sins to be taken away.

    hope this clarifies some doubt. =)
    religion is kind of a sensitive topic, so i hope i don't offend anybody here.
     
  16. RIPPA MATE

    RIPPA MATE New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Australia
    I'm Christian, but nobody goes to heaven or hell. Yes there is a heaven, but when we die, we die, dead. That is what i believe anywho.
     
  17. Max Vantage

    Max Vantage Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2006
    Messages:
    428
    Likes Received:
    8
    I’ve pretty much always been an atheist although I’ve never really seen any justifiable reason to state so – I just am. When I was a child I was brought up in a christian household but I had both apathy and common sense as my sidekicks that got me successfully through all the BS although my folks were not dogmatic or fundamentalists. Although to be honest, religion in the UK for a LONG, LONG time has been the equivalent of an already half-dead horse. It’s primarily kicked for the sake of philosophical thought experiments – and quite fun they are too.

    When it comes to christianity, I always thought that you either follow it or you don’t. And in that regard, if you don’t believe that homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned, even though your religion states that they should, then I consider you also to be an atheist. Otherwise if you do believe they should, then I consider you to be dangerous. The bible could contain a billion pieces of good, wholesome, positive scripture, but all it takes for a religion that is supposed to be about “peace and love” to fall in on itself is just one to advocate stoning someone for an arbitrary and capricious “crime” that really is no one else’s business. That is just one in many, MANY incidences that helped me question the ethical and contradictory validity of christianity and concluded that it wasn’t something for me. If many state that the bible is not the sole authority of christianity then by what authority do people know that what they are practicing is precisely what the supposed Jesus devised? I shouldn’t imagine that even orthodox christians are practicing precisely what was devised as the only surviving gospels were pretty much only in bits and pieces and the rest on hearsay.
    And since Paul of Tarsus hijacked it and re-wrote it for his own specifications, and has been rewritten ever since, it’s a bit awkward to know precisely what it was or what its intent was supposed to be, hence the reason why the bible has so many contradictions.

    And if there is a claim that god is supposed to be incomprehensible then how is it people comprehend in him to believe in him and devise everything based on him? If it’s a faith call, then how can one have faith in something incomprehensible?

    But anyway, fast-forward to today and science has pretty much permanently nailed the last nail in the whole theist/deist coffin for me. I don’t need it, don’t want it, and don’t care for it. It’s not actually a necessity for people to learn how to be moral and good. If people do need it for those purposes then it kinda raises a few concerning questions about the ethical state of that person in the first place.
    What we have learned from the scientific method so far really shows compellingly that all of existence seems to have been formed without a god in sight. And I don’t go for this “god created everything so that it would appear to us that it created itself”. I’m sorry, that’s not good enough. That’s just dishonest rhetoric in shaping science to fit one’s worldview.

    Except they are. Laws of logic (although that’s an anthropomorphic expression) and mathematics are not universal or from the universe, they are devised by us and for us in order to understand the universe and objective reality with the deposition that we may one day prove ourselves wrong. And if so, the “laws” are then restructured, re-drawn, re-plotted, re-thought etc. The universe doesn’t need them. They’re for us to understand the universe. It’s not that things that exist are following these “rules” or “laws”. It’s that we have created “rules” and “laws” to follow things that exist. These pre-conditions just are what they are. Existence just behaves the way that it behaves. It just doesn’t behave any other way. (And if my memory serves me correctly, a certain mathematical system had been proven wrong, I really can’t remember what it was though as it was so long ago.)

    Except what that fails to take into account is that many people of the same faith are motivated to do the same things as one another because their faith requires it by way of tenets, commandments etc, whereas atheism has none. That logical fallacy proposition is a logical fallacy in itself! Lol

    Not really. You’d have to take into account what the primary motivators are according to what faiths propose of its believers. Like I mentioned above, atheists do not have any one solidifying belief. Atheism does not promote a group mentality and nor is it a religion. The only common thing that all atheists have by definition is a lack of belief in a god (all of them). So that discounts atheists from your “everyone”. And I can’t ever remember hearing of any atheists being motivated by their lack of faith to do bad, to do crime, or to start wars, but according to the tenets of some faiths, it DOES influence its believers to do bad or at least believe that certain bad actions are excusable if given the proper motivation for them by way of their faith. If they don’t, then as I mentioned somewhere at the top, I would personally consider them to be atheists.

    Then his whole rule is arbitrary and so doesn’t require either worship or belief in him seeing as what he creates comes natural to him. If we can “know” him or his intent, then he exists within the natural process (and incidentally logic can very well then be applied to him). If he exists within the natural process, he is flawed (since nothing exists that is perfect). If he is flawed, he is therefore not divine. And if he is not divine, then he is not god. And if he is not god, he therefore does not exist. God I love this sh-t! :cool: :D

    This is the classic philosophical disproof of both omniscience and omnipotence. By definition, both contradict each other’s existence. If you knew the outcome of an event before it happened, do you have the power to affect a different one? If so, then you’re not omniscient as you did not foresee what will happen. If you do foresee what will happen but cannot change it, then you are not omnipotent. Both cannot exist.

    And if god is omnipotent, can he create a more powerful god than he who is also able to create a more powerful god than he (ad infinitum)? If so, then they all are not god since god is a power than which none other can be conceived/devised. If he can’t create a god more powerful than he, then he is not omnipotent. And if he is not omnipotent, then he is not god, therefore he doesn’t – and cannot – exist since god is omnipotent.

    The parable of Adam and Eve is one of my favourites as it makes no sense whatsoever. If god gave them free will, and if god is omniscient, then he would’ve already foreseen Eve’s actions before she made them. And before eating the fruit of knowledge, she would not have pre-known what she was doing or the consequences and therefore is without intent of her actions, therefore she is absolved of the guilt of evil because evil intent precedes evil actions. Even if she was tempted by satan via the snake, it wouldn’t have mattered because there would be no way whatsoever for temptation to exist unless it already existed AND BEFORE Eve having any knowledge of it because she had yet to eat from the tree and therefore is without intent of her eventual actions. Actions without intent are not inherently evil. Therefore god would’ve had to have instilled evil and temptation into Eve before she was supposedly tempted, and before she ate, and before also tempting Adam. So therefore this parable doesn’t account for the pre-conditions for evil to exist unless god simply willed it into Eve before she even decided to sin and that’s because it wasn’t really her choice at all.

    Therefore, god is one evil mofo! Although I consider these biblical stories to be puerile, I can’t help thinking that for every “proof” for the existence of god in just about any form/description etc, there’s at least three against his existence, and in a far greater convincing sense.

    That’s compelling enough for me. And so the story goes… lol

    It’s probably far better just to stick to this:

    It’s called “conversation”. Lol

    What about the one who was originally trespassed against? I commit a sin that made a victim of another, a third party forgives me for it therefore I am absolved of guilt of my sin regardless of what my victim thinks about it? Sweet! ;)


    ‘Scuse I for all the response medley thingy. Couldn’t be bothered separating them into their own.

    Hmmm…forum hasn’t changed all that much. I see everyone has blogssesses! Smashing! :D
     
  18. ning

    ning New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    hmm of course if we commit a sin that hurt the other person we are supposed to seek for forgiveness. but our sins may not neccessary hurt another person. for example, committing adultery may not neccessary hurt the other person, but it is still a sin. telling a lie may not neccessary harm others, but it is still wrong.

    but no matter the case, a sin is still a sin. even in the human world, if you do something wrong, you have to pay for it. a thief has to go to prison, a murderer has to be hanged/shot. Christ paid the debt for us, but it did not mean we don't need to be reconciled with the person we hurt.

    say for example, if we murder a person. of course if we truly repent God will forgive us. but it did not mean that we need not seek for forgiveness from the family members of the victim. and also, we still have to be punished under the human law by being hanged.

    as for the 'lesser' sins like lying which may not harm other people, it is still a sin. and therefore we owe a debt and we need to pay. because humans commit many sins, and we are not able to pay it off on our own, Jesus, who has no sin, died so He can pay for our debts. it doesn't mean we can continue to sin as much as we like though, because we need ro repent.

    yeapx. this is it. hope it answers your question.
     
  19. Shadow Dragon

    Shadow Dragon Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    3,483
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    In the land of the gods
    I have a question for all of the christians here about the holy trinity. Are Jesus, god and the holy spirit/ghost supposed to be the same being or three seperate beings?
     
  20. ning

    ning New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Ghost - these 3 together make up the Holy Trinity. God, well is of course God, who creates everything. Jesus is the Son who died for our sins. and the Holy Ghost lives in us when we accepted Christ to convict us when we sin, to speak to us when we read the Bible and when we do quiet time etc. the Holy Ghost is like a counseller to guide us in our christian faith. but it is by no means limited to that. All 3 of them were in existence before everything was created.
     
  21. lordofhats

    lordofhats New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2007
    Messages:
    2,022
    Likes Received:
    14
    Location:
    The Hat Cave
    All the major denominations believe that the Holy Trinity, the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, are both all separate and all the same. A common phrase for describing it is "All is one, one is all." They are both separate and the same being. I know a lot of people seem to find it confusing but somehow I make sense of it.

    The relationship between the three can vary from one denomination to the next, but as far as I know Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants, and Calvinists all agree that the Holy Trinity is both on being and three beings at the same time. God exists in the form three persons but is one being.

    This can vary by denomination. Some go with the eternal damnation approach but for other's hell is the last chance wake up call a human soul gets before the End Times when God will eternally destroy the forces of evil.
     
  22. Shadow Dragon

    Shadow Dragon Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    3,483
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    In the land of the gods
    I've heard it said like that too, but it is a bit confusing.

    Like for example the story of Jesus. Does that fact that they are really the same being mean that god fathered god; who allowed himself to be sacrificed in order for him to forgive us? :confused:

    Also, I know that not every christian sect believes the same thing, this is more towards the ones that believe they are the same being like the sects that Lord Of Hats mentioned.
     
  23. ning

    ning New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    shadow dragon, maybe you can look at it this way. God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost together form one governing body to rule the whole of creation. it is not so different from the government we have on earth.

    well, as for the existence of Jesus, no one really knows how He came to be, except that to christians it is a fact He exists. Jesus allowed Himself to be sacrificed to save us.
     
  24. Leaka

    Leaka Creative Mettle

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
    5,824
    Likes Received:
    36
    I don't believe in God.
    And one of the main reasons I do not is because it feels as if they are taking away, what is to be human.
    You cannot always control being greedy or jealous.
    These are natural feelings as a human being and to say feeling this way is a sin, is wrong.
    And that is how I feel.
    All religion is wrong, all religion does is brain washes you and makes you believe they are teaching good morals.
    People can make up their own morals without God around.
    This is my view on it though.
    And this is my belief.
     
  25. Shadow Dragon

    Shadow Dragon Contributor Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    3,483
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    In the land of the gods
    That does make more sense to look at it that way but then wouln't christianity actually be a polytheistic religion rather than monotheistic religion? Even if God is considered more powerful of them, it still means that christians (at least the sects that believe them to be seperate beings) worship three seperate entities rather than just one.

    Also, just to note, I'm not trying to critize christain beliefs, I just like talking about and learning about various religions and philosophies.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice