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  1. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    How Do You Guys Keep Good Novel Length Without Info-Dumping?

    Discussion in 'Plot Development' started by frigocc, Mar 3, 2019.

    My narrator's personality is one that gets straight to the point. Because of this, he often skips what he sees as irrelevant details, and skips over a lot of time. But when there is actually something happening, I just cannot, for the life of me, figure out how to elaborate without being overly detailed.

    But a good part of my story is about how superheroes/vigilantes really don't see that much crime, and it gets boring. There are only so many ways I can describe the hero walking down the same few stretches of the city, and not encountering anything out of the ordinary.

    I've figured out that I want to break my first novel up into 11 distinct chapters, and 55k words (5k per chapter), and I'm finding it hard to get past even half of that for the first chapter.

    I feel like I have to add a lot of pointless crap in order to meet my word count. There simply isn't enough action to write incredibly long scenes, but I'm not really sure how to lengthen through detail. I wish I could post examples, but I know that you can't just post an unsolicited critique.
     
  2. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    I guess I could make the first chapter or so shorter, but not sure I could make up for it in other chapters.

    I guess I just don't know how to write actual novels. I've never written anything more than like 20 pages. But I have a vision I want to see through.
     
  3. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    Write a story as a series of scenes first, group/divide the scenes into chapters later.
    Don't let any chapter be too long or too short, but there's a wide range that's fine.
    My chapters range from 400 to 8700 words in length; most are in the 3000-6500 range.
    Some chapters include multiple scenes; some scenes are divided across multiple chapters.

    I don't have the answer on the tip of my tongue, but ask yourself: What's the function of dividing a story into chapters?
     
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  4. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    Maybe your story just isn't a 55k word novel. Maybe it's shorter.
     
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  5. Reece

    Reece Senior Member

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    Agreed. Why do you want them to be 5k? It seems arbitrary. Write your story, don't add filler to force a certain word count per chapter.
     
  6. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    Trying to get traditionally published for first novel in a trilogy. Doubt they'd accept a 35k word novel
     
  7. Reece

    Reece Senior Member

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    They would if it's middle grade. At any rate, you seem focused on your chapter count and word count per chapter. Perhaps you need to rework the story. It might not fit into that mold. If you want more words, it might take more chapters. They need to flow well. If you are trying to bulk them up just to fit your ideal chapter/word count, it will show.
     
  8. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    Part of it also is that I know I can make it longer by simply writing better and with slightly more detail. But I'm trying to do 11 chapters. It's a "guide" type of book, where the chapters coincide with what lesson the hero learned in that chapter.

    I think I can complete most chapters, I've just never really written out lengthy action scenes that take up multiple pages, so that's really where my fear lies.

    I guess I just need to study more fiction. Last time I read anything other than study texts or news articles was years ago.
     
  9. Reece

    Reece Senior Member

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    Okay I see where you are coming from. Maybe between the lessons you can intersperse some half chapters. Flashbacks or something? It opens it up for you to keep the guide style but also grow the story outside of the guide, if that makes sense.
     
  10. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    Perhaps you should add some chapters where, for humors sake, the hero learns NOTHING!
    Or perhaps learns that what he thought he learned in a previous chapter was WRONG!

    Or not. But don't get straight-jacketed by your chosen meta-structure.
    The reader probably won't care much about that, they just want a good story.
     
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  11. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    This is exactly what I'm going to do. Hero will think he learned something but he learned the wrong thing. I think I could easily make no novel longer with this.
     
  12. XRD_author

    XRD_author Banned

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    Makes your hero more human, too.
    We've all learned the wrong lesson from something, at some point.
     
  13. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    Yeah and want to do it in a comedic way. We thinking of also going the Hitchhiker's Guide route, with shorter but more chapters. I think there were like 34 chapters for 46k words
     
  14. Matt E

    Matt E Ruler of the planet Omicron Persei 8 Contributor

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    What's your genre? 55k might actually be on the short side for a first time traditionally published book, though I live in the scifi + fantasy mindset, which will run longer than some genres. We shoot for closer to ~100k.

    If your premise is about something being boring, you need to be very careful. Readers don't like boring. You can write that the hero considers it boring, but it shouldn't actually be boring. A classic solution to your problem here would be to up the stakes. Add in new plot threads that make things more dangerous for the hero. More conflict. More mystery. Add in more of whatever makes your story awesome, or mix in another subgenre like mystery, romance, or horror to give your book another dimension. But don't force it. While the ideal may be really long, sometimes you don't need to make it long. Finish the book and write another, then another, then another. And try to get all of them published.
     
  15. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    May I recommend this book? Beginnings, Middles and Ends, by Nancy Kress? I just re-read it the other day, and am impressed by how useful it is. It's not concerned with Write Your Story In Just Five Days, etc, but is concerned about how to construct your story. What to put in, and what to leave out, etc.

    https://www.amazon.com/Beginnings-Middles-Elements-Fiction-Writing/dp/1599632195/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=Nancy+Kress&qid=1551595095&s=gateway&sr=8-6

    Her section entitled 'Moving along the track: Thinking in Scenes' might be especially useful. She says:
    The scenes you dramatise most fully will be the ones you find most interesting. (It's a mistake to assume that 'action' automatically means interesting. It doesn't. Nothing more boring than over-described 'action' involving people and situations that don't mean anything to us yet.)

    You employ transition (telling, if you will) to get the character from dramatised point A to dramatised point B. You don't need to dramatise the character's entire life.

    Think about yourself. Something interesting happened to YOU today. You want to tell a friend about it. Do you start with your alarm clock, your morning shower, what you had for breakfast, which clothes you put on, when you left the house, how you got to work, etc—when the incident you want to tell your friend about is something that happened at the pub later that night? Writing employs the same principle. Only the interesting stuff gets dramatised. For example, you can sum up your 'day' to your friend, by saying, "After work, I decided to go to the Horse and Cart for a pint, and...."

    The OP seems concerned about getting his story to a particular length without padding. My response is this: if you concentrate on dramatising rather than simply relating what happened and what happened next, you should be okay.

    If you feel you're whipping through the story too quickly, then I think you need to take a few steps back and dramatise your interesting and important scenes more fully. This means you need to forget 'plot' for a while, and concentrate on making the scenes come alive. Obviously the scenes should move your plot forward, but not too quickly. You want your reader to feel they are experiencing events along with your characters. You can't do this if you are just zooming along from plot point to plot point.

    Ask yourself before you start to write each dramatised scene: What do I want this scene to accomplish?

    By 'accomplish' I mean specific (even emotional) things. Not something like "I want Martha to drive from Detroit to St Ignace," but something more specific, like, "I want the reader to see that getting out of the city for the first time is having an effect on Martha. She's reluctant to make the trip, but when she finally crosses the Mackinac Bridge, she feels excited by what she's already seen, although she is well outside her comfort zone."

    As you dramatise that scene, make the reader see what Martha sees. Let the reader make the mental transition from city life to rural/woodsy surroundings along with Martha, and explore Martha's feelings, hopes and fears as she does this. Maybe she sees her first herd of deer? (Wow.) Dead skunk by the roadside? (Yikes.) Trees turning colour? (Amazing.) Maybe she leaves the freeway to have lunch and coffee at a cafe in one of the small northern towns along the way, and observes how the locals look and behave, etc. How does she feel? Like an outsider? Is she warmly welcomed? Is the food and coffee really good? Or substandard? You will still get Martha from Detroit to the UP, but in a way that will make an impression on the reader.

    If she has to make several trips north during the course of the story, you don't need to dramatise each one. It'll be enough to say, "Martha drove north again on Friday. When she got to St Ignace...."
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  16. Selbbin

    Selbbin The Moderating Cat Staff Contributor Contest Winner 2023

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    Dump the silly idea of word count, unless you're a columnist.

    Just tell the story the best way you can. If it's short, it'll more likely end up a movie anyway.

    I don't understand. You're worried about word count and still intend to split the story into a trilogy? Why? Put it all in the one book. Problem solved.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
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  17. jannert

    jannert Retired Mod Supporter Contributor

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    Selbbin's giving good advice. Just write. Tell your story as fully as you can. Get feedback. And go from there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  18. The Piper

    The Piper Contributor Contributor

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    I might be the only one here with this opinion, and if so fair enough, but I can't stand long chapters. 5K is what, twenty pages? So not excessively long to read, but to write...

    I mean, think about this. You've decided exactly what happens in each chapter, yeah? Or you have an idea, at least. But you write chapter 6 (or something) and you've written EVERYTHING that you planned for that chapter. It's taken 1200 words. Did you do it wrong? Did you plan it badly? And what do you do now, do you writer another 3800 words of shite just to meet that chapter length you were aiming for? Do you integrate chapters 6 and 7, and get a shorter book?

    Does it matter?

    It's the same for the word count of your book. Forget it. I'm sorry if this comes across as blunt, or harsh, I'm in a cynical mood today and perhaps for something like this that's the best way to be. The only targets you should have are:

    1. Finish the story
    2. Make it good

    If you now start worrying about length, you're putting limits on yourself. Who cares if it's not as long as 55K words?

    Also, just a little side note, I don't know how many publishers would consider a book that's less than 75/80K words.

    Back to point - IF you want your book to be published, and you're worried it might not be long enough, then don't worry about the way you're telling it. It's your story, tell it how you want. If a publisher wants it, great. But you have a unique voice and it is NOT worth changing that just to make your book longer. Instead, look at the PLOT. Is 55K enough to get you published? Depends on who you ask. Does word count compare to quality? Absolutely not. But if your book isn't long enough, look at the plot and figure out what's missing. Maybe it's simply not a story that can be any longer. Maybe you could add to what you already have. Maybe, like someone else has already said, you could forget any plans for a trilogy (for now) and put them all together.

    My main point is, length is good, but it's not everything. There's nothing better than a nice, chunky book, and 55K- about 200 pages - is a short book. Not particularly chunky. Does this matter?

    No, as long as it's good.

    You're a writer. Well, if you want to be. And if you choose that path, then pay attention to the words, not the numbers. At the end of the day, your story is your story. But until it's finished, there is NO WAY of knowing, besides a rough estimate, how long it's going to be. And there is NO SENSE in aiming for any kind of length.

    Write.

    Apologies for my mood and my use of capitals. Hope this helps despite the grumpiness.
     
  19. frigocc

    frigocc Contributor Contributor

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    I'm thinking along those lines as well. I kinda like how Hitchhiker's Guide has only 4-6 pages per chapter. Those 20-page chapters are brutal. Maybe it's because I don't use bookmarks, and always just end at the start of a chapter.

    Not everything, but I do have a general idea, yes. And I never really thought of it that way. If it naturally comes as as a shorter amount, it can simply be a shorter chapter. No problem there.

    It doesn't have to be exactly 55k, but I'd definitely like it long enough to be traditionally published. I know I can do it without writing fluff, I just need to plan better.

    I should also mention that this book is satire/humor. I'm hoping that this would mean I'd get a bit more leniency with word count. Another thing I want to consider if the fact that not many people will buy $10 books that are only 175 pages.

    ---


    Regardless, I've actually taken a new approach to my novel, rewriting it from the very start with more detail and with shorter, but more chapters. It reads FAR better than it originally did.
     
  20. Friedrich Kugelschreiber

    Friedrich Kugelschreiber marshmallow Contributor

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    I also prefer shorter chapters. Sounds like you're headed in the right direction.
     

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